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MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not?

DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
edited December 2010 in The Poker Clinic

350 runners, 2/30 left, 30 paid......

Am I too aggressive?

I had been kinda aggressive at this table but not overly.....
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
cottlad Small blind  600.00 600.00 17242.00
DOHHHHHHH Big blind  1200.00 1800.00 47546.76
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • 7
     
Lb070 Fold     
MonkeyF Fold     
drac1946 Fold     
Lunnie Fold     
cottlad Call  600.00 2400.00 16642.00
DOHHHHHHH All-in  47546.76
This is a new table, no reads or anything.

6/25ish at this stage.....
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
DOHHHHHHH Small blind  600.00 600.00 30304.76
sikas Big blind  1200.00 1800.00 33131.00
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • K
     
PARKSER Fold     
dundee_p Raise  3600.00 5400.00 55828.25
ian57 Fold     
DOHHHHHHH All-in  30304.76 35704.76 0.00
sikas Fold     
dundee_p
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Comments

  • elsadogelsadog Member Posts: 5,677
    edited December 2010
    You're probably going to get called in both examples, which I guess is not what you wanted.

    The cards are somewhat irrelevant in both hands. What is important are the relevant stacks. In first hand you're likely to get a call from a relative shortstack who judges this as the time to make a move. In the second you are shoving against a dominant stack who has already made a raise to get action and who will likely call with suited connectors or above.

    First to act AK is great, re-raising against the big stack with Ace high is asking for trouble.
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited December 2010
    hand 2 I play it the same.

    hand 1 I play the same readless, but I've played quite a lot with cottlad and never seen him limp from the sb so that might have set the alarm bells off lol. Still, you can't make too big of a mistake shoving with an ace with under 15bbs effective.
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not?:
    You're probably going to get called in both examples, which I guess is not what you wanted. The cards are somewhat irrelevant in both hands. What is important are the relevant stacks. In first hand you're likely to get a call from a relative shortstack who judges this as the time to make a move. In the second you are shoving against a dominant stack who has already made a raise to get action and who will likely call with suited connectors or above. First to act AK is great, re-raising against the big stack with Ace high is asking for trouble.
    Posted by elsadog
    AK is a fantastic hand. We are literally printing money by 3betting here. The only decision is whether to 3bet small/call it off or just shove. I prefer shoving with stack sizes as they are.
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited December 2010

    The 2nd one is a clear reshoving spot in a standard mtt.

    The first one im not so keen on as id be wary of what cottlad is limping in with..poss trap?! 

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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited December 2010
    its fine to shove both hands, hand 1 i don't care what hand hes completing with
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited December 2010
    both are fine. I'm tempted to say otherwise just to not agree with you doh rotflmfao
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  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited December 2010
    Yes, both good shoving spots, though the limp in hand 1 is suspicious when coming from a strong opponent. I haven't got time to do the maths now but hand 2 is a great spot, this is a big +ev move.
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not?:
    Yes, both good shoving spots, though the limp in hand 1 is suspicious when coming from a strong opponent. I haven't got time to do the maths now but hand 2 is a great spot, this is a big +ev move.
    Posted by GaryQQQ
    please do the math i would be interested to see what you come up with...
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  • spornybolspornybol Member Posts: 8,212
    edited December 2010
    first hand yes too aggro you`d get called by better hand  2nd i`d do same

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  • scotty77scotty77 Member Posts: 4,970
    edited December 2010
    1st one I'd just check vs that villain. 

    2nd one is totally standard.


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  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not?:
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not? : please do the math i would be interested to see what you come up with...
    Posted by N1CK
    OK, here goes;

    We'll have to make some estimates about our opponents range. I'm assuming he opens 3x from the cut-off with any pair, any suited ace, A7o+, any 2 broadway cards, mid suited connectors and a few higher suited kings and queens. Then I'll assume he will only call the shove with TT+, AK, AQo, KQs or ATs+, which represents the top 19.6% of his opening range. DOHHHHHH's AKo has 52.634% equity against this calling range.

    So, 80.4% of the time dundee will fold to the shove and DOHHHHHHH will make a profit of 5400 chips.

    10.316% (52.634% x 19.6%) of the time dundee will call and DOHHHHHHH will win a 62409.52 pot for a profit of 32104.76 chips.

    9.284% (47.366% x 19.6%) of the time dundee will call and take the pot, DOHHHHHHH will lose his 30304.76 chip shove and be eliminated from the tournament.

    80.4% x +5400 = +4341.6
    10.316% x +32104.76 = +3311.93
    9.284% x -30304.76 = -2813.49

    4341.6 + 3311.93 - 2813.49 = +4840.04

    So on average this shove makes a profit of 4840 chips, thats 4BB and increases DOHHHHHHH's stack by 16%.
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  • shelskishelski Member Posts: 467
    edited December 2010
    In Response to MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not?:
     Am I too aggressive?
    I'm not sure. I think the answer is yes if you continue to advertise on the forum in the way you do ?
    Small edges man and if you wish to fulfill your aspirations it's time to get real and live it maybe ?
    Doesn't mean you can't help other people.
    Happy Christmas to you, maybe re-focus i hope this helps ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy6qEUmbZ1Y
    It's warfare. You are a curious soul. Stop it. Just rein in the aggression and concentrate everything on winning maybe ?
    Just trying to help.
    Stop being so open the others don't care.
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  • HartshorNHartshorN Member Posts: 616
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not?:
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not? : OK, here goes; We'll have to make some estimates about our opponents range. I'm assuming he opens 3x from the cut-off with any pair, any suited ace, A7o+, any 2 broadway cards, mid suited connectors and a few higher suited kings and queens. Then I'll assume he will only call the shove with TT+, AK, AQo, KQs or ATs+, which represents the top 19.6% of his opening range. DOHHHHHH's AKo has 52.634% equity against this calling range. So, 80.4% of the time dundee will fold to the shove and DOHHHHHHH will make a profit of 5400 chips. 10.316% (52.634% x 19.6%) of the time dundee will call and DOHHHHHHH will win a 62409.52 pot for a profit of 32104.76 chips. 9.284% (47.366% x 19.6%) of the time dundee will call and take the pot, DOHHHHHHH will lose his 30304.76 chip shove and be eliminated from the tournament. 80.4% x +5400 = +4341.6 10.316% x +32104.76 = +3311.93 9.284% x -30304.76 = -2813.49 4341.6 + 3311.93 - 2813.49 = +4840.04 So on average this shove makes a profit of 4840 chips, thats 4BB and increases DOHHHHHHH's stack by 16%.
    Posted by GaryQQQ
    You sick sick guy!
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  • SiralosSiralos Member Posts: 12
    edited December 2010
    Anyone not advocating a shove in the first one is a....well, nevermind, but they're not worth listening too.

    He has less than 15bbs and is almost certainly looking for a free flop with a marginal hand. A7 is more than enough to cram in his face and get him to fold his j8o. If he's limping with the intention of trapping, so be it, you'll still have at least 30% equity.

    Second is the most standard all-in you'll get.
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not?:
    Anyone not advocating a shove in the first one is a....well, nevermind, but they're not worth listening to. He has less than 15bbs and is almost certainly looking for a free flop with a marginal hand. A7 is more than enough to cram in his face and get him to fold his j8o. If he's limping with the intention of trapping, so be it, you'll still have at least 30% equity. Second is the most standard all-in you'll get.
    Posted by Siralos
    Another "know it all" arrives in the clinic, great...

    fwiw, scotty, who advocated this view due to his knowledge of the villain, is one of the best all round players on the site imo.
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  • scotty77scotty77 Member Posts: 4,970
    edited December 2010
    i wouldn't go anywhere near that far Mr Hogg!

    but yeah against an unknown its a shove.  cottladd is very, very rarely gonna be limp/folding here IMO.  he is not the type of player who will waste 1/2bb limping in with J7.
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  • beanehbeaneh Member Posts: 4,079
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not?:
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not? : Another "know it all" arrives in the clinic, great... fwiw, scotty, who advocated this view due to his knowledge of the villain, is one of the best all round players on the site imo.
    Posted by GREGHOGG

    teee heeeee


    Greghogg =  "comedian of the year" imo!
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  • scotty77scotty77 Member Posts: 4,970
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not?:
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not? : teee heeeee Greghogg =  "comedian of the year" imo!
    Posted by beaneh

    YES LIKE LIKE LIKE
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not?:
    In Response to Re: MTT - Deep......2 shoving spots.....or not? : Another "know it all" arrives in the clinic, great... fwiw, scotty, who advocated this view due to his knowledge of the villain, is one of the best all round players on the site imo.
    Posted by GREGHOGG
    read again chaps, i mean, scotty is almost as plump as Dylan:))
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  • jesusdog22jesusdog22 Member Posts: 348
    edited December 2010
    you have to call everytime dohhhh shoves because he never ever has anything above 74
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