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4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK.

tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
edited January 2011 in The Poker Clinic
firstly I limped the Q,10 as i wanted to use it as a drawing hand post flop. Im normally quite good at leaving these hands alone in this position and leaving it with this many players post flop. However for some reason i felt like having a little gamble and as you would expect it led to some desisions needed to be made. So first of all I know I should have put it down pre - but we are where we are.

The big stack has been playing TAG and the small stack passive

so on the flop Im normally checking 4 handed, but like i said above for some reason decided to play it out strong hoping to get a couple of folders and take it down on the turn or river.......obviously folding to any strong reraises.

The check by x and the min bet by the small stack made the desison for me too as i felt he was drawing with that bet. obviously once the big stack calls and small stack calls im sandwhiched between them on the turn and not too sure where i am in regards to the big stack, im fairly sure im ahead against the small stack and hes drawing.

What would you do on the turn here with staright possibilities - fire off a second barrel and risk two calllers or a reraise - check?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
x Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £1.04
smallstack Big blind  £0.08 £0.12 £4.88
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • 10
     
tapeworm Call  £0.08 £0.20 £8.44
mattless Fold     
gegster Fold     
Bigstack Call  £0.08 £0.28 £12.25
xCall  £0.04 £0.32 £1.00
smallstack Check     
Flop
   
  • 2
  • 8
  • 10
     
x Check     
smallstack Bet  £0.08 £0.40 £4.80
tapeworm Raise  £0.44 £0.84 £8.00
bigstack Call  £0.44 £1.28 £11.81
x Fold     
smallstack Call  £0.36 £1.64 £4.44
Turn
   
  • J
     
smallstack check     
tapeworm ??    
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Comments

  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited January 2011
    check the turn for pot control. if the river a 9 or T then great. (dnt get fancy with a T tho)
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  • waynecwaynec Member Posts: 1,023
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK.:
    check the turn for pot control. if the river a 9 or T then great. (dnt get fancy with a T tho)
    Posted by The_Don90
    I can see ur logic Don but.... at this level dont u think its more likely they are chasing the flush draw as a suited hand is rated by a lot of small stake players, so if we check we give him a free card to hit his draw and betting will build the pot if they miss their draw?? IMO
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK.:
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK. : I can see ur logic Don but.... at this level dont u think its more likely they are chasing the flush draw as a suited hand is rated by a lot of small stake players, so if we check we give him a free card to hit his draw and betting will build the pot if they miss their draw?? IMO
    Posted by waynecure
    Wayne i do agree if we are against one opponent the bet. However against two opponents i think its a check. HU pots are always easier of coarse. However lets look at the board, we have QT which obviously takes out a couple of the striaght options with Q9. However 97, 9Q now both has us crushed. We cant beat JT/T8 or a set. The only thing i can see we beat is a FD and 9T. 

    Obviously the OP claims their mistake was limping utg with QT which i like because hes noticed a mistake. I just think checking the turn is the most optimal play. 

    Id most likley be checking to call in honesty to assess the river, although anything but a 9 or T im check/folding the river too. 

    Now i know this is only NL8 but i still feel this is the correct play anything more, and i fear we'd get brought into a trap i have done many a time at this level and got attached to flopping top pair. 
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  • waynecwaynec Member Posts: 1,023
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK.:
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK. : Wayne i do agree if we are against one opponent the bet. However against two opponents i think its a check. HU pots are always easier of coarse. However lets look at the board, we have QT which obviously takes out a couple of the striaght options with Q9. However 97, 9Q now both has us crushed. We cant beat JT/T8 or a set. The only thing i can see we beat is a FD and 9T.  Obviously the OP claims their mistake was limping utg with QT which i like because hes noticed a mistake. I just think checking the turn is the most optimal play.  Id most likley be checking to call in honesty to assess the river, although anything but a 9 or T im check/folding the river too.  Now i know this is only NL8 but i still feel this is the correct play anything more, and i fear we'd get brought into a trap i have done many a time at this level and got attached to flopping top pair. 
    Posted by The_Don90
    Ok if we check and bigstack is a half decent player as suggested by the reads, he is going to sense weakness and could bet any draw, what do we do then?
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  • tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
    edited January 2011
    Ok so my line of thought went along the same lines as Wayne in that checking would show weakness alowing either to steal. So I bet out and the big stack folded, small stack calls. What are we doing on the river after the small stack checks again - value bet or check behind?

    x Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £1.04
    small stack Big blind  £0.08 £0.12 £4.88
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • 10
    		     
    tapeworm Call  £0.08 £0.20 £8.44
    mattless Fold     
    gegster Fold     
    big stackCall  £0.08 £0.28 £12.25
    x Call  £0.04 £0.32 £1.00
    small stack Check     
    Flop
       
    • 2
    • 8
    • 10
    		     
    x Check     
    small stack Bet  £0.08 £0.40 £4.80
    tapeworm Raise  £0.44 £0.84 £8.00
    big stack Call  £0.44 £1.28 £11.81
    x Fold     
    small stack Call  £0.36 £1.64 £4.44
    Turn
       
    • J
    		     
    small stack Check     
    tapeworm Bet  £0.82 £2.46 £7.18
    big stack Fold     
    small stack Call  £0.82 £3.28 £3.62
    River
       
    • 8
    		     
    small stack Check     
    tapeworm ??  
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK.:
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK. : Ok if we check and bigstack is a half decent player as suggested by the reads, he is going to sense weakness and could bet any draw, what do we do then?
    Posted by waynecure
    We call and assess the river. Players at this level more often than not will check for a draw anyways. But as i said how can you put your opponent Specifically on a draw. What can beat beat except that draw?  
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK.:
    Ok so my line of thought went along the same lines as Wayne in that checking would show weakness alowing either to steal. So I bet out and the big stack folded, small stack calls. What are we doing on the river after the small stack checks again - value bet or check behind? x  Small blind   £0.04 £0.04 £1.04 small stack  Big blind   £0.08 £0.12 £4.88   Your hole cards Q 10       tapeworm Call   £0.08 £0.20 £8.44 mattless Fold         gegster Fold         big stack Call   £0.08 £0.28 £12.25 x  Call   £0.04 £0.32 £1.00 small stack  Check         Flop     2 8 10       x  Check         small stack  Bet   £0.08 £0.40 £4.80 tapeworm Raise   £0.44 £0.84 £8.00 big stack  Call   £0.44 £1.28 £11.81 x  Fold         small stack  Call   £0.36 £1.64 £4.44 Turn     J       small stack  Check         tapeworm Bet   £0.82 £2.46 £7.18 big stack  Fold         small stack  Call   £0.82 £3.28 £3.62 River     8       small stack  Check         tapeworm ??   
    Posted by tapeworm
    Check - no one to act behind. Only better calls a bet. Even if big stack called the turn i still check. 
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  • tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK.:
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK. : Check - no one to act behind. Only better calls a bet. Even if big stack called the turn i still check. 
    Posted by The_Don90
    Ok good. i was unsure as to if I should have bet out for value due to my suspisions of him drawing (the 8 not improving any draws in that respect) but because he check called twice I was worried he could have a set or made his set with the 8, or of course there was the straight he could have had.

    I checked he turned over AK of clubs, so he was drawing and I took down the pot - by good luck more than judgement methinks!!!.

    Still wished I folded pre tho - to much thinking for my liking!!!!
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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK.:
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK. : Ok good. i was unsure as to if I should have bet out for value due to my suspisions of him drawing (the 8 not improving any draws in that respect) but because he check called twice I was worried he could have a set or made his set with the 8, or of course there was the straight he could have had. I checked he turned over AK of clubs, so he was drawing and I took down the pot - by good luck more than judgement methinks!!!. Still wished I folded pre tho - to much thinking for my liking!!!!
    Posted by tapeworm
    Wow he had AKcc, very shocked this didnt end up all in on the flop. Expessially from a shorty. 
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  • tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK.:
    In Response to Re: 4/8nl cash. Sandwhiched between big stack and small stack post flop action With TPGK. : Wow he had AKcc, very shocked this didnt end up all in on the flop. Expessially from a shorty. 
    Posted by The_Don90
    Like i said he was playing really passive. No raise pre and just called me all streets. Played like that all night.
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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196 Member Posts: 1,170
    edited January 2011
    lol cant look at ur avatar for long makin me sick....body snatchers n all that ..WHY lol

    standard hand, check river is fine not much value for bettin there ..only bet if you wana hide ur hand..
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  • AyrGraemeAyrGraeme Member Posts: 271
    edited January 2011
    Shove all-in every time
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited January 2011
    1. raise or fold pre
    2. as played defo fire the turn
    3. small value bet on the river

    i decided this before i saw results.
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