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low limit over betting

tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
edited February 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Ok so everyone knows you play your cards strong at <NL8, what i want to know is....... is it worth over betting the pot most times when you have TPTK or more on the flop after raising pre - playing with premiums and high PP.

this has paid me off so far - but it does pot commit me quick - obviously.

so i win more money faster when ahead.....but lose faster when out drawn or behind - is this a winning strat long term. Ive won more than lost so far, but only adopted strat for less than a week, so hardly enough time to prove it.

Could some players that played through the limits say if this is a winner - or due to high varience just play ABC 75% pot poker
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Comments

  • walesboywalesboy Member Posts: 993
    edited February 2011
    are you betting first or check raising?
    passive or agressive table

    betting first on passive - 1/2 to pot to build it
    on agressive - pot at least unless a smaller ("weaker") bet would induce a reraise

    check raising - definately over betting on all tables.

    As you know people don't want to let go or don't consider your cards at NL4
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  • tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
    edited February 2011
    pretty much always betting first

    \tables are likely full of passives with maybe one other TAG......oh and the occasional crazy!

    Which adds to the dillema - i know i m going to be outdrawn sometimes, but people here love to chase.....so surely im better off over betting????
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited February 2011
    An over-bet is better than an under-bet......

    You can't go wrong just betting the pot all the time.

    Over-bet on the river ALOT - when you feel he has a hand that he just wont fold.

    eg. you have TJ on a 6,7,8,9, x board.......Just jam.

    What I do, is bash the pot button, then click off 1,2,3, maybe 4 big blinds depending on the size of the pot.

    I don't understand your fear of being out-drawn. Are you asking whether you should keep the pot small, (with big hands) until the river when you can make sure that the flush draw doesn't come in?

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  • walesboywalesboy Member Posts: 993
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: low limit over betting:
    pretty much always betting first \tables are likely full of passives with maybe one other TAG......oh and the occasional crazy! Which adds to the dillema - i know i m going to be outdrawn sometimes, but people here love to chase.....so surely im better off over betting????
    Posted by tapeworm
    only the occasional crazy!!  I must attract them then!

    you are up, admittedly over a short time period, so with the tables you are finding I'd say carry on.
    you do find that people don't believe you. over time, with the hands you are talking about you should be profitable. just got to ride out the inevitable time when they "always" seem to hit

    GL 
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  • walesboywalesboy Member Posts: 993
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: low limit over betting:
    An over-bet is better than an under-bet...... You can't go wrong just betting the pot all the time. Over-bet on the river ALOT - when you feel he has a hand that he just wont fold. eg. you have TJ on a 6,7,8,9, x board.......Just jam. What I do, is bash the pot button, then click off 1,2,3, maybe 4 big blinds depending on the size of the pot. I don't understand your fear of being out-drawn. Are you asking whether you should keep the pot small, (with big hands) until the river when you can make sure that the flush draw doesn't come in?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Wild swings here are usual given the nature of NL4. it can be difficult to put people on hands.
    you can go on a big downturn, like I've had, for some time due to this. over time you should win, it can just take a long time! lol!
    I'm not sure there's fear here just an appreciation of NL4 players
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  • tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: low limit over betting:
    An over-bet is better than an under-bet...... You can't go wrong just betting the pot all the time. Over-bet on the river ALOT - when you feel he has a hand that he just wont fold. eg. you have TJ on a 6,7,8,9, x board.......Just jam. What I do, is bash the pot button, then click off 1,2,3, maybe 4 big blinds depending on the size of the pot. I don't understand your fear of being out-drawn. Are you asking whether you should keep the pot small, (with big hands) until the river when you can make sure that the flush draw doesn't come in?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    what i am trying to sya is that by Overbetting the pot whilst are cards are good we are making a profit faster- however due to the nature of NL4 players we are likely to get outdrawn more often.

    Bearing in mind most players here sit down with half a buy in, you/they become pot committed very quicky. It is not uncommon to see a shove on a TK8 flop with someone holding a pair of 2s. in this instance lets say we have AJ - we are behind  - it may only be 10bb to call.....but its still 10 BB whilst you are behind

    The other senario is that some one calls your overbet to complete their gutshot/runner runner/ flush draw and (at somepoint) hit - because we are over betting we have to call their all in on the turn....because there all in is invarably less than is the pot, and we cant always put them on a hand!!!

    So we lose quicker, but win faster.....im just confusing myself......just get it in good, is the moral of the story isnt it!!!!!
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited February 2011
    lol.

    Well whilst you feel you have the best hand, you're trying to get as much money in the middle as possible. 

    Keep it simple ;)

    Bet as much as you think he will call - Start with "full pot" as your default value bet size, and adjust it if you have notes.
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  • tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
    edited February 2011
    These two hands are prime examples (the second being the potcommitted variety) - by the way mods i am not deleting names as i dont think im slating there play - please let me know if you wish me to remove.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    victor0928 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £3.65
    cashsmith Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £4.88
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • K
    		     
    tapeworm Raise  £0.16 £0.22 £4.00
    minmitmoo Fold     
    s2pot Fold     
    victor0928 Call  £0.14 £0.36 £3.51
    cashsmith Fold     
    Flop
       
    • 3
    • 10
    • K
    		     
    victor0928 Check     
    tapeworm Bet  £0.36 £0.72 £3.64
    victor0928 Call  £0.36 £1.08 £3.15
    Turn
       
    • 6
    		     
    victor0928 Check     
    tapeworm Bet  £0.81 £1.89 £2.83
    victor0928 Call  £0.81 £2.70 £2.34
    River
       
    • J
    		     
    victor0928 Check     
    tapeworm Check     
    victor0928 Show
    • Q
    • A
    		   
    tapeworm Show
    • Q
    • K
    		   
    victor0928 Win Straight to the Ace £2.49  £4.83
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  • tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
    edited February 2011
    BTW i know ididnt over bet here - but just showing you hand examples!!!
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    smiler59 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £3.66
    steveskin1 Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £3.86
    simonAAA Big blind  £0.04 £0.10 £1.56
      Your hole cards
    • J
    • A
    		     
    tapeworm Raise  £0.20 £0.30 £4.07
    spiderweb Fold     
    simonAAA Fold     
    BRIANV Call  £0.20 £0.50 £0.45
    smiler59 Fold     
    steveskin1 Fold     
    Flop
       
    • 2
    • J
    • 6
    		     
    tapeworm Bet  £0.50 £1.00 £3.57
    BRIANV All-in  £0.45 £1.45 £0.00
    tapeworm Unmatched bet  £0.05 £1.40 £3.62
    tapeworm Show
    • J
    • A
    		   
    BRIANV Show
    • A
    • 7
    		   
    Turn
       
    • 9
    		     
    River
       
    • 9
    		     
    BRIANV Win Flush to the Ace £1.29  £1.29
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  • pryce6pryce6 Member Posts: 1,058
    edited February 2011
    They are not really prime examples of what you have been describing.

    I don't mind overbetting in some instances, but mostly on the river for value or as a bluff.

    I moved through these levels pretty quickly a few months ago, I just bet 3/4 mostly, occasionally pot or overjam when I knew I could get more. 

    Not really sure it's worth getting fancy, if you like pot betting then fair enough (personally I don't), but I wouldn't go over.
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  • tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
    edited February 2011
    Hi Pryce,

    I think they are - the first we get out drawn.....the second we are in come what may and we really do have to call if we are shoved on at this level with the second hand.....no?
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  • pryce6pryce6 Member Posts: 1,058
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: low limit over betting:
    Hi Pryce, I think they are - the first we get out drawn.....the second we are in come what may and we really do have to call if we are shoved on at this level with the second hand.....no?
    Posted by tapeworm
    Firstly, you don't overbet the pot on either of these hands. 

    The first one you are not faced with a decision on the river as you both check? So it's not like you overbet the pot twice and then someone shipped the river and you have to call for less than the pot.

    Second hand is just irrelevant because he has like 50p, ofc you have to call. And you didn't overbet the pot, he only had 11bigs anyway.
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  • tapewormtapeworm Member Posts: 432
    edited February 2011
    Pryce as i said in the above posts - i realise i didnt bet over the pot in these hands just using them as an example

    The first hand - i bet 3/4 each time and out drawn on final card - IF i had over bet i am getting my money in front for the first two streets, and am pot committed by the river - shove - i lose buy in..............good check by me BTW

    But the second hand is EXACTLY what im talking about - he only has xxp you have to call but he has the flush - its getting money in behind ......which equels a loss over time no? But you are faced with these calls all day every day due to the buy ins of your oppos.....what i want to know is are we better of overbetting flop, turn, river - getting callers and winning when in front - but chancing the fact we are going to lose buy ins to examples like hand 1
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  • pryce6pryce6 Member Posts: 1,058
    edited February 2011
    Ok I thought you were going to give examples of actually overbetting.

    My advice to you - should you wish to listen! I usually stuck to 3/4ish, maybe a little higher. It meant I could keep my c bets with air/semi bluffs relatively cheap and still charge worse hands/draws. If they get there like in hand 1? So what, play the hand 100 times you will be a winner.

    I only considered betting pot or overbetting when I had specific reads on a complete fish that bascially call anything they hit.
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