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DYM : In Big Blind hitting my A on flop

futsalreffutsalref Member Posts: 44
edited March 2011 in The Poker Clinic
I'm thinking I'm ahead but not wanting to build a big pot.

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceaSmall blind 50.0050.002370.00futsalrefBig blind 100.00150.001790.00 Your hole cards2A   bFold    cFold    dFold    eCall 100.00250.001745.00aCall 50.00300.002320.00futsalrefCheck    Flop  AK8   aCheck    futsalrefBet 100.00400.001690.00eCall 100.00500.001645.00aFold    Turn  6   futsalrefBet 100.00600.001590.00eCall 100.00700.001545.00River  3   futsalrefBet 100.00800.001490.00eRaise 400.001200.001145.00                        
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  • penguin7penguin7 Member Posts: 1,095
    edited March 2011
    Fold, What hand could you possibly be beating?
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  • POKERTREVPOKERTREV Member Posts: 9,607
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Playing Big Blind pairing A on flop:
    Fold, What hand could you possibly be beating?
    Posted by penguin7
    Penguin is quiet correct here - folding to the raise on the river is your only option.


    Hi Penguin.
    Is it possible you could go back a little on this hand and explain what the player could have done better pre-flop, postflop etc as he was sitting on the BB with 2 limpers and may have avoided this situation if it had been played better. (Only if u don't mind)

    Thanx - Pokertrev.
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  • futsalreffutsalref Member Posts: 44
    edited March 2011

    I'm in middle position here and I have a check post flop when I have top pair, unfortuntely no kicker. So I have to ask the question post flop as I hit top pair.

    I get one fold and one call so don't see any strength. Unfortunately I'm left with the player on the button who I'm expecting to play positionally.

    I think I'm ahead and as the flush busts out I feel the raise on the river is a positional bet to try to get me off.

    I've not seen any cards that worry me. The only thing is I have such a poor kicker. If I was sat their with AQ would you say fold? My opponent does not know the strength of my kicker and has shown no strength. I'm thinking they have a good K or two diamonds, certainly no more than a pair, they may have an A but I don't think so.

    I think I have some show down value here and whilst do not want to risk my tournament I need to mix my game up somewhat. It leaves me ok behind so it's fairly safe.

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  • penguin7penguin7 Member Posts: 1,095
    edited March 2011
    Okay Trev ! Firstly A2 is a hand which I will never out a penny into a pot with preflop. Apart from AAA or 222 there are few flops which you can be comfortable with. Even 345 leaves you vulnerable to any hand with a six in it. Hitting the ace on the flop you are only likely to be playing the streets with someone who is ahead with a better kicker.

    Here you wake up with it in the big blind and it is limped round to you, so you have to make the best of it. Going to the flop 3 handed and in middle position it is checked to you. I would check and fold to any bet here. You need to improve your hand to have any real showdown value andits not worth paying for.

    If you do decide to bet the flop,it has to be a bigger bet than 100 into a 300 pot to have any value. You need to be asking them if they have an ace too. The minimum bet of 100 only increases the pot to give them odds to call with a wide range of hands for a small investment, and gives you no information.

    After the blank on the turn another 100 bet into a 500 pot has even less value. You need to think about what you are trying to achieve with each bet. The fact that it is again called should tell you all you need to know.

    Another blank on the river, and you must know you are behind,your 100 bet there is simply throwing chips down the pan. Your opponent has noted your weakness and can take the pot away from you with or without a hand.

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  • futsalreffutsalref Member Posts: 44
    edited March 2011
    I would not have played this hand from any other position on the table so certainly have no question about that.

    I understand what you are saying but think that if I check every time then 95% I get a bet from the button with any two cards and I have top pair.

    In many situations I'm going to fold this.

    Let me ask something slightly different ... If you had limped on the button, which I expect you never do, I wouldn't, what is your range, it certainly is showing no strength at best A high, poor kicker. Given the rest of my play what do you do post flop, and on the turn. My guess is you have position so you raise, unless you are drawing and are passive and want to see the next card. When the draw busts you have nothing so should fold the river but make a positional bluff as the text books say I should snap fold. That is how I'm reading it.

    I am playing the player here and not only my cards. If I only play my cards I check the flop and fold to the inevitable bet. That is what everyone is expecting as position is so important. But not everyone understands the power of position.
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  • penguin7penguin7 Member Posts: 1,095
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM : In Big Blind hitting my A on flop:
    In Response to Re: DYM : In Big Blind hitting my A on flop : Many Thanks Penquin. Would we play this any differently if we were A2 Sooted? or does it still have very little value?
    Posted by POKERTREV
    Oh yes Trev ! Quite willing to limp into a multiway pot with that. Only to see the flop and I dont want to see an ace there. Two of your suit on the flop and off you go (and no pairs ideally!). If not its a fold. My strategy is to try and lure two opponents in, so I have double odds to hit with the implied odds on top. The nut flush draw is a powerful thing.
    Why am I talking to you , Trev ? You are certainly no beginner !
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  • futsalreffutsalref Member Posts: 44
    edited March 2011
    I appreciate the additional comments regarding having a suited ace and I'd play it very differently as penguin has suggested.

    BUT

    I did not.

    I still see nothing but weekness from the button. Or are you suggesting a slow play followed by a value bet on the river.

    What are you putting the villain on here given their play?
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  • POKERTREVPOKERTREV Member Posts: 9,607
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM : In Big Blind hitting my A on flop:
    In Response to Re: DYM : In Big Blind hitting my A on flop : Oh yes Trev ! Quite willing to limp into a multiway pot with that. Only to see the flop and I dont want to see an ace there. Two of your suit on the flop and off you go (and no pairs ideally!). If not its a fold. My strategy is to try and lure two opponents in, so I have double odds to hit with the implied odds on top. The nut flush draw is a powerful thing. Why am I talking to you , Trev ? You are certainly no beginner !
    Posted by penguin7
    Well - I wasn't particularly asking for me personally. But thought it would be beneficial to others players who may be looking for help in the clinic and tbh you explain it much better than I ever could.
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  • penguin7penguin7 Member Posts: 1,095
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM : In Big Blind hitting my A on flop:
    I would not have played this hand from any other position on the table so certainly have no question about that. I understand what you are saying but think that if I check every time then 95% I get a bet from the button with any two cards and I have top pair. In many situations I'm going to fold this. Let me ask something slightly different ... If you had limped on the button, which I expect you never do, I wouldn't, what is your range, it certainly is showing no strength at best A high, poor kicker. Given the rest of my play what do you do post flop, and on the turn. My guess is you have position so you raise, unless you are drawing and are passive and want to see the next card. When the draw busts you have nothing so should fold the river but make a positional bluff as the text books say I should snap fold. That is how I'm reading it. I am playing the player here and not only my cards. If I only play my cards I check the flop and fold to the inevitable bet. That is what everyone is expecting as position is so important. But not everyone understands the power of position.
    Posted by futsalref
    Yes position is at least as important as the cards. But it is so because it gives you two things, control and information. And if you want to benefit from it you have to ask questions (betsizing is so important here) and listen to the answers.
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  • futsalreffutsalref Member Posts: 44
    edited March 2011

    I am listening ... What have you put the villain on?

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  • penguin7penguin7 Member Posts: 1,095
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM : In Big Blind hitting my A on flop:
    I appreciate the additional comments regarding having a suited ace and I'd play it very differently as penguin has suggested. BUT I did not. I still see nothing but weekness from the button. Or are you suggesting a slow play followed by a value bet on the river. What are you putting the villain on here given their play?
    Posted by futsalref
    Think about it ! I still would have check/folded on the flop, but a bet of 250 there would have found out if he was weak or strong. Instead you gave him 300 in instalments and are still left wondering what might have been.
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  • POKERTREVPOKERTREV Member Posts: 9,607
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM : In Big Blind hitting my A on flop:
    I am listening ... What have you put the villain on?
    Posted by futsalref
    When Penguin says "Listen to the answers" He means - by making a larger bet size you are asking the other player in the hand a question and how that player responds to your bet is how they  answers the question.
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  • futsalreffutsalref Member Posts: 44
    edited March 2011
    ok ... so your advice is to bet bigger rather than the min.

    Interesting that you have both assumed that I lost the hand.

    Will anyone say what they are putting the villain on?
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  • pryce6pryce6 Member Posts: 1,058
    edited March 2011
    Not agreeing with how you played the hand. But given the amount of weakness you've shown it's conceivable that villain will have picked up on that and could be raising missed draws etc

    Edit: I'd expect to see QJd, JTd and other missed diamond or straight draws. If he has a genuine hand it's probably something annoying like A3
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited March 2011
    I'd just check it down. Maybe call 1 bet on turn and/or river depending on sizing.

    Not really bothered about this hand (if im playing it) tbh, last thing I wanna do is make the pot bigger on all 3 streets.


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  • penguin7penguin7 Member Posts: 1,095
    edited March 2011
    Yes . As DOHHH rightly says he wouldnt be too bothered by what he had, and nor should you be. The fact is that you have played yourself into a position where you can only be guessing. He could easily have a weak ace himself which more than likely is beating yours. He may even thought your small bets gave him the odds to play a poor king and hit 2 pair. Or it may be a total bluff where he has floated the flop with absolutely nothing and carried it through,because your minimum bets on all the streets have led him to correctly believe he could take the pot away from you on the river.

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  • futsalreffutsalref Member Posts: 44
    edited March 2011

    I am also sure that if he has the A he is beating me and it's almost the only thing I am worried about on the river as I expecting some sort of a raise if he has hit 2 pair if he wants to build the pot and if he was drawing then he has busted.

    So either check or raise post flop?

    Nothing gained with the small bet.

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  • penguin7penguin7 Member Posts: 1,095
    edited March 2011
    u got it ! gl m8
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  • POKERTREVPOKERTREV Member Posts: 9,607
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: DYM : In Big Blind hitting my A on flop:
    I am also sure that if he has the A he is beating me and it's almost the only thing I am worried about on the river as I expecting some sort of a raise if he has hit 2 pair if he wants to build the pot and if he was drawing then he has busted. So either check or raise post flop? Nothing gained with the small bet.
    Posted by futsalref
    Spot on Futsalref.
    Nothing to be gained by the small bet.

    Also, I did not presume you had lost the hand. It matters not whether you won the hand or not on this occasion, what is more important is, how we play the hand consistantly in the long term.

    If played as penguin as suggested, we are at least plugging a hole in an area where we are potentially leaking chips by letting our opponent in too cheaply.
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  • futsalreffutsalref Member Posts: 44
    edited March 2011

    I'll close it out by completing the hand.

    The villain had 10D, 9D so had a gutshot straight draw and the flush draw which busted.

    I called.

    Many thanks for the responses as always. I'll play this differently next time.


    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceaSmall blind50.0050.002370.00futsalrefBig blind100.00150.001790.00 Your hole cardshttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="heart">2    https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="diamond">A

       bFoldcFolddFoldhttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/hhdealer.gif'); padding-bottom: 0px; background-color: transparent; margin: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 18px; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 100% 100%; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial" class="dealer">eCall100.00250.001745.00aCall50.00300.002320.00futsalrefCheckFlop  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="spade">A
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="diamond">K
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="diamond">8
       aCheckfutsalrefBet100.00400.001690.00eCall100.00500.001645.00aFoldTurn  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/club.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="club">6
       futsalrefBet100.00600.001590.00eCall100.00700.001545.00River  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/club.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="club">3
       futsalrefBet100.00800.001490.00eRaise400.001200.001145.00futsalrefCall300.001500.001190.00eShow
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="diamond">10
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="diamond">9
    futsalrefShow
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="heart">2
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-repeat: no-repeat; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; -webkit-background-clip: initial; -webkit-background-origin: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="diamond">A
    futsalrefWinPair of Aces1500.002690.00
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