Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!!

SolidStan1

This real hurt.. £10+£1, £250 Gtd Bounty hunter, close to the money, 8 players left..

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
daddysteve	Small blind		100.00	100.00	2420.00
iveaces	Big blind		200.00	300.00	10470.00
	Your hole cards	10 A
SolidStan1	Raise		600.00	900.00	6195.00
FINGERS417	Fold
daddysteve	Fold
iveaces	Call		400.00	1300.00	10070.00
Flop
		10 2 4
iveaces	Bet		600.00	1900.00	9470.00
SolidStan1	Raise		1450.00	3350.00	4745.00
iveaces	Call		850.00	4200.00	8620.00
Turn
		3
iveaces	Check
SolidStan1	All-in		4745.00	8945.00	0.00
iveaces	All-in		8620.00	17565.00	0.00
iveaces	Unmatched bet		3875.00	13690.00	3875.00
iveaces	Show	4 3
SolidStan1	Show	10 A
River
		Q
iveaces	Win	Two Pairs, 4s and 3s	13690.00

BigBluster

I don't think you raised enough from early position. If I played the hand I would have made it 1000 and folded to a re-raise. There would not be a call with this size of raise.

On the flop, again I don't think you've bet enough. You did little more than a min-raise and gave him 850 into a 4200 pot or about 5/1, odds he had to take especially as he had you well covered. I would have been overbetting the pot at that point - more afraid of any paint than anything else.
Once you let him see the turn you're pretty well done for. Overall I think your big turn bet came at least 1 street too late, possibly two.

As an aside; Do you play more cash than tournies? In some respects I think you played it more how you would play a cash hand rather than a MTT hand around the bubble.

But what do I know?

SolidStan1

Thanks for your advise. I should have maybe posted this in the clinic (my bad). The more I look at this, I think I did give him half or maybe just a quarter of a chance.
I would discribe myself has a Tournement player, however, just lately I have been playing cash quite abit, and been doing very well at it. maybe that explains..

Thanks again for your post..

CLIOKID

In Response to Re: Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!!:

I don't think you raised enough from early position. If I played the hand I would have made it 1000 and folded to a re-raise. There would not be a call with this size of raise. On the flop, again I don't think you've bet enough. You did little more than a min-raise and gave him 850 into a 4200 pot or about 5/1, odds he had to take especially as he had you well covered. I would have been overbetting the pot at that point - more afraid of any paint than anything else. Once you let him see the turn you're pretty well done for. Overall I think your big turn bet came at least 1 street too late, possibly two. As an aside; Do you play more cash than tournies? In some respects I think you played it more how you would play a cash hand rather than a MTT hand around the bubble. But what do I know?
Posted by BigBluster

Raising 5x would be terribad.

I probably just shove flop when he leads into me tbh.

CrazyBen23

Did nothing wrong if u ask me, could maybe shove on flop, just got unlucky

YOUNG_GUN

ul i'd shove flop also

BigBluster

In Response to Re: Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!!:

In Response to Re: Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!! : Raising 5x would be terribad. I probably just shove flop when he leads into me tbh.
Posted by CLIOKID

Could you explain why please? As I said, this is how I would play it and for the reason outlined. If there is something I'm continually doing wrong I'm keen to learn from it.

Thank you.

BB.

LOL_RAISE

it basically turns our hand into a bluff, requires the table to have to fold >77% of the time for it to be profitable
we are risking alot to win a little

CLIOKID

In Response to Re: Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!!:

In Response to Re: Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!! : Could you explain why please? As I said, this is how I would play it and for the reason outlined. If there is something I'm continually doing wrong I'm keen to learn from it. Thank you. BB.
Posted by BigBluster

You said you would be raise/folding this hand.

So why would you want to make it 5BB in when the same thing can be achieved by a 3BB raise?

You get the same amount of folds but will cost yourself 2 extra BB's every time you get raised.

BigBluster

In Response to Re: Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!!:

In Response to Re: Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!! : You said you would be raise/folding this hand. So why would you want to make it 5BB in when the same thing can be achieved by a 3BB raise? You get the same amount of folds but will cost yourself 2 extra BB's every time you get raised.
Posted by CLIOKID

Thanks for the response. I'm not sure I fully agree with this - it's callers I would raise 5x to avoid, not raisers or folders. As the OP's example showed, the call from the villain created problems, a raise or fold (clearly) is easy to deal with. I think making it 5BB makes it much less likely that a caller will emerge. Everyone's experience is different though: I would make exactly the same argument in favour of a 5BB v 7BB raise as you have made for a 3BB v 5BB raise.

LOL-Raise has the killer argument. If I'm going to raise 5 bigs then fold to a re-raise, why do it with AT? I may as well do it with 72! Paradoxically, AT is too good a hand to make this play so a 3BB raise may be better in this situation (assuming the decision to play the hand).

CLIOKID

In Response to Re: Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!!:

In Response to Re: Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!! : Thanks for the response. I'm not sure I fully agree with this - it's callers I would raise 5x to avoid, not raisers or folders. As the OP's example showed, the call from the villain created problems, a raise or fold (clearly) is easy to deal with. I think making it 5BB makes it much less likely that a caller will emerge. Everyone's experience is different though: I would make exactly the same argument in favour of a 5BB v 7BB raise as you have made for a 3BB v 5BB raise. LOL-Raise has the killer argument. If I'm going to raise 5 bigs then fold to a re-raise, why do it with AT? I may as well do it with 72! Paradoxically, AT is too good a hand to make this play so a 3BB raise may be better in this situation (assuming the decision to play the hand).
Posted by BigBluster

If you think consider AT to be a strong hand, then why do you not want action with it? Do you not want callers out of the blinds to play along with worse out of position against us?

Raising 3x also allows you to steal the blinds cheaply, get away cheaply if raised, disguise hand strength.

If you make it 5x to steal with AT, you have to make it 5x with AA too and risk losing all action. On the flip side, it means you can't really steal the blinds cheaply ever if you only raise strong with your big hands and weak with your bluffs.

Besides making it 3x will lure people into playing poor hands out of position against you, which at the end of the day is what you want.

You just don't want them to donk you out, but more often than not they won't. (Or shouldn't!)

Mod_Kiwini

In Response to Re: Should I have seen this, How do I deal with it!!!:

Thanks for your advise. I should have maybe posted this in the clinic (my bad). The more I look at this, I think I did give him half or maybe just a quarter of a chance. I would discribe myself has a Tournement player, however, just lately I have been playing cash quite abit, and been doing very well at it. maybe that explains.. Thanks again for your post..
Posted by SolidStan1

Hi, I have moved this into the Clinic for you

yb

2.5x is fine from the co with these stack sizes imo, as played I'd raise the flop a bit more so we can shove turn for < psb

pryce6

1) we want him to call oop with 43o
2) we want him to call flop with middle pair
3) 5x is awful!
4) What Clio said!

Dudeskin8

Exactly how I'd play it, sick beat btw.