To check raise or not to check raise?

AMYBR

Quite a lengthy discussion in poker clinic in regard to the check raise and I wanted to open a thread here, mainly to see if my line of thinking really is that out of whack with the majority.

For a variety of reasons that I've already gone into, I very, very rarely checkraise.  The only occassions I'l do it is if I'm know my opponent cant stand a raise (i.e I'm weak) or very rarely at the turn or river when I know my opponent will fold to a bet or to pot commit him, but most likely not even then.

I just think if youre trying to extract value the C/R is your worst play, I'll go into more detail if people are interested, but I was just curious as to what you guys though?

penguin7

I think you are wrong to say that it is the worst play to extract value. It is a useful weapon, but I agree that knowledge of opponents is important.

But it is not difficult to counter a player who overuses the check raise. Exactly as you could a player who cbets every flop or raises every button.

In tournaments I like to mix up my game and will use it in the right spots. There are players about who will almost automatically bet when a flop is checked to them, and then call your reraise light more out of pride than anything else.

And if the stack sizes are right you can often commit them to a pot, when they have very little.

JockBMW

In Response to Re: To check raise or not to check raise?:

I think you are wrong to say that it is the worst play to extract value. It is a useful weapon, but I agree that knowledge of opponents is important. But it is not difficult to counter a player who overuses the check raise. Exactly as you could a player who cbets every flop or raises every button. In tournaments I like to mix up my game and will use it in the right spots. There are players about who will almost automatically bet when a flop is checked to them, and then call your reraise light more out of pride than anything else. And if the stack sizes are right you can often commit them to a pot, when they have very little.
Posted by penguin7

You are an evil, evil man Mr P ;o)

AMYBR

Yeah totally agree with the check raise light, predicting your opponents play, I should have made my OP clearer.

When sat strong/very strong, why would you look to check raise?  In that scenario, with a fairly dry board, I just dont see the sense. Again, will go into more detail if needs be, just want to hear a variety of perspectives, than will put mine.
 

YOUNG_GUN

I've been using it quite alot since the discussion as has been good for me. good to combat the standard Cbet, i have used both as a bluff and as the nuts to balance the range etc

I recommend it but you have to use it correctly not just constantly

AMYBR

Yes, it is great against the standard c-bet, if your playing frequently online it should be used a lot in that situation, simply because people find it very VERY hard to check back in position when  they've raised pre flop. 

What did you think to that other thread Young gun?  There's alot of strategy in there.  Wasnt sure If I was getting my point across.

YOUNG_GUN

TBF i didn't read it fully mate, thread was ok lol just made me think i need to use it a bit more

hurst05

i think check-raising is one of the most useful moves, it allows for us to get stacks in when we have a big hand or a big draw. 

JockBMW

In Response to Re: To check raise or not to check raise?:

i think check-raising is one of the most useful moves, it allows for us to get stacks in when we have a big hand or a big draw. 
Posted by hurst05

+ 1 

leon621

i like to use it in a tournament setting as a bluff after a pretty poor flop comes out im utg i check, it gets checked to the guy in possition and he puts an obscene raise in quite clearly trying to bully his way into money, snap raise makes it appear your trying to trap him. Deadly when your wrong though

AMYBR

You see this is the point I'm trying to make.  To get your stack in with a big hand or big draw, your opponent must have something to get it in with you.

So why check raise?  Your basically forcing your opponent to re evaluate the strength of their hand, making good players wary and bad players cautious. If you have the big hand, or the big draw, surely you are much better off leading out, looking for a re raise, allowing you to 3bet, putting more in the pot than the check raise would.  Plus your giving yourself the opportunity to pick up the uncontested pots when your opponent holds nothing.  Your much more likely to get action on the flop than the turn, so even if its not all in on the flop, you still get to disguise the strength of your hand, getting at least two streets of value or thin value calls/showdown value, even allowing your opponent to make mistakes on later streets

Again, your stack is only going in if your opponent is strong, unless they see you leading out alot, where this will infact stimulate people re raising you weak!  Your also never letting freecards come off, so no free runner runner backdoor beats.

LOL_RAISE

do you ever lead/3bet the flop as a bluff?

AcidMan27

You're on a table, one player c-bets 99% of flops after they've raised pre. The flop comes really dry and you think has missed your opponent, they c-bet again, sometimes if you check raise here you can bully them off the pot easily.

hurst05

In Response to Re: To check raise or not to check raise?:

You see this is the point I'm trying to make.  To get your stack in with a big hand or big draw, your opponent must have something to get it in with you. So why check raise?  Your basically forcing your opponent to re evaluate the strength of their hand, making good players wary and bad players cautious. If you have the big hand, or the big draw, surely you are much better off leading out, looking for a re raise, allowing you to 3bet, putting more in the pot than the check raise would.  Plus your giving yourself the opportunity to pick up the uncontested pots when your opponent holds nothing.  Your much more likely to get action on the flop than the turn, so even if its not all in on the flop, you still get to disguise the strength of your hand, getting at least two streets of value or thin value calls/showdown value, even allowing your opponent to make mistakes on later streets Again, your stack is only going in if your opponent is strong, unless they see you leading out alot, where this will infact stimulate people re raising you weak!  Your also never letting freecards come off, so no free runner runner backdoor beats.
Posted by AMYBR

if you have a big draw you still need to hit to make your hand, if the guy folds you win a nice pot without the risk of missing the cards you need. if you get it all in then fine. 

ChirpyChip

*To get your stack in with a big hand or big draw, your opponent must have something to get it in with you.*

by check raising, you give also give your opponent the opportunity to Jam on you if they think your making a move,,, c/r very important tool 

scotty77

BTN raises
we call from SB with like T9cc

Flop K 8 3 rainbow

do we check/fold to the cbet or check/raise.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: To check raise or not to check raise?:

*To get your stack in with a big hand or big draw, your opponent must have something to get it in with you .* by check raising, you give also give your opponent the opportunity to Jam on you if they think your making a move,,, c/r very important tool 
Posted by ChirpyChip

If your opponest is likely/capable of doing this then they are just as capable of raising any lead out you make, same result, without the ossaciated benefits of the lead out (taking the uncontested pots.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: To check raise or not to check raise?:

do you ever lead/3bet the flop as a bluff?
Posted by LOL_RAISE

Yes, but only in the given spots I've mentioned if weak.  Greenstein - esque, premium strong pre flop hand selection, aggressive post flop,

AMYBR

In Response to Re: To check raise or not to check raise?:

You're on a table, one player c-bets 99% of flops after they've raised pre. The flop comes really dry and you think has missed your opponent, they c-bet again, sometimes if you check raise here you can bully them off the pot easily.
Posted by AcidMan27

Yep already went through this bud.  Am not talking about check raising a standard c bet OOP.  Talking extracting value when OOP sat strong.

Sky_Dave

As Chirpychips says, it's an important tool. Simply put, the more moves/tools you have in your arsenal, the trickier a player you are to play against, so check raising seldomly is going to make you an easier opponent. Not a good thing.

Would I check raise on dry flops such as K83r with T9cc? Not half as much as I would lead. If I am check raising a lot on these flops, I am polarising my range too much and also going to spew chips if I get jammed on. Why C/R a 200 bet on the flop to 750 only to fold when, if you suspect your opponent has missed the flop, you can lead for 200 yourself and get them off the hand that way?

Usual Sky Dave caveats apply: depends on so many variables including opponent, your image (meta and recent), stack sizes, etc.

Sky_Dave

On Amybr's point about using the C/R as a way to extract value on made hands OOP, I think it becomes more useful in these situations, especially when the flop comes wet and you're happy enough to play for stacks. I would not be C/R as readily with AK on a K83r flop though as it basically stops our opponent from bluffing off more chips. I would C/C flop and then C/R or B/C on the turn with what I consider strong hands.