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Nice draw on the flop

WilhelmWilhelm Member Posts: 1,730
edited March 2011 in The Poker Clinic
I know I played this hand badly.  After betting the flop I should fold to the raise as I can't call for that percentage of my stack and I can't raise because I have no fold equity.  The villain has been very fit or fold post-flop so there's a 0% chance I can be ahead.  Anyway, it was the bet on the flop that put me in a difficult situation, so should I be going for a check-shove on the flop?  Or is hoping for a check with 1 player left who I've already mentioned is fit or fold a bit ambitious?  If he checks behind I get a free card, but then I have to hit my draw to win the hand.  All thoughts appreciated.

Ta
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
i_amquacky Small blind  600.00 600.00 56346.25
loza Big blind  1200.00 1800.00 35165.00
  Your hole cards
  • 6
  • A
     
eaglenige Call  1200.00 3000.00 19200.00
Wilhelm Raise  3200.00 6200.00 44271.25
x Call  3200.00 9400.00 30617.50
i_amquacky Fold     
loza Call  2000.00 11400.00 33165.00
eaglenige Call  2000.00 13400.00 17200.00
Flop
   
  • 7
  • 10
  • 4
     
loza Check     
eaglenige Check     
Wilhelm Bet  6000.00 19400.00 38271.25
x Raise  16800.00 36200.00 13817.50
loza Fold     
eaglenige Fold     
Wilhelm All-in  38271.25 74471.25 0.00
x All-in  13817.50 88288.75 0.00
Wilhelm Unmatched bet  13653.75 74635.00 13653.75
Wilhelm Show
  • 6
  • A
   
x Show
  • 7
  • 7
   
Turn
   
  • J
     
River
   
  • Q
     
x Win Three 7s 74635.00  74635.00
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Comments

  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited March 2011
    assuming we have 0 FE then we have to put 24,617.5 in to a pot of ~50k so we only need 33% equity to breakeven


    Board: Ts 7s 4d
    Dead: 

        equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied   
    Hand 0:     44.021%      44.02%     00.00%              18304             0.00   { As6s }
    Hand 1:     55.979%      55.98%     00.00%              23276             0.00   { QQ-JJ, 77, 44, ATs, KsQs, KsJs, KTs, 9s8s, ATo, KTo }

    taking out JJ,QQ gives us 43% equity still, ithink its fine to get it in if we assume he is raising the flop with 1pair hand and also draws but that depends on your reads

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  • WilhelmWilhelm Member Posts: 1,730
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    assuming we have 0 FE then we have to put 24,617.5 in to a pot of ~50k so we only need 33% equity to breakeven Board: Ts 7s 4d Dead:      equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied    Hand 0:     44.021%      44.02%     00.00%              18304             0.00   { As6s } Hand 1:     55.979%      55.98%     00.00%              23276             0.00   { QQ-JJ, 77, 44, ATs, KsQs, KsJs, KTs, 9s8s, ATo, KTo } taking out JJ,QQ gives us 43% equity still, ithink its fine to get it in if we assume he is raising the flop with 1pair hand and also draws but that depends on your reads
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    Oh.  Fair dos.
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  • WilhelmWilhelm Member Posts: 1,730
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    assuming we have 0 FE then we have to put 24,617.5 in to a pot of ~50k so we only need 33% equity to breakeven Board: Ts 7s 4d Dead:      equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied    Hand 0:     44.021%      44.02%     00.00%              18304             0.00   { As6s } Hand 1:     55.979%      55.98%     00.00%              23276             0.00   { QQ-JJ, 77, 44, ATs, KsQs, KsJs, KTs, 9s8s, ATo, KTo } taking out JJ,QQ gives us 43% equity still, ithink its fine to get it in if we assume he is raising the flop with 1pair hand and also draws but that depends on your reads
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    Actually when he raises I would expect top pair is the worst of his possible holdings.  I don't think he would raise with a good combo draw.  Also, there's a pay jump with the next person eliminated, but actually I'm not sure how that affects this.  I need to read up on ICM.
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited March 2011
    This is another example of how a tournament should be played differently to a cash game.
    You should fold to his flop raise.
    As you say, you had no equity - he wasn't actually betting you another 10K, he was betting you 30K. As the ladder was well in operation, you just don't need to be getting it in here. You're in the money with 36 bigs and a good opportunity to push on further - no need to go risking 2/3 of it on a draw.

     
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  • WilhelmWilhelm Member Posts: 1,730
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    This is another example of how a tournament should be played differently to a cash game. You should fold to his flop raise. As you say, you had no equity - he wasn't actually betting you another 10K, he was betting you 30K. As the ladder was well in operation, you just don't need to be getting it in here. You're in the money with 36 bigs and a good opportunity to push on further - no need to go risking 2/3 of it on a draw.  
    Posted by BigBluster
    Thanks BigB, but I was more concerneed with whether my bet of 6000 on the flop is giving me the best chance to win the hand, if you know what I mean.
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop : Thanks BigB, but I was more concerneed with whether my bet of 6000 on the flop is giving me the best chance to win the hand, if you know what I mean.
    Posted by Wilhelm
    I think your 6K was alright. Some will say bet more but 6K was probably enough to do the job without overcommitting yourself. Turn the 7s into the 8s and the 6K would have got through.
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  • WilhelmWilhelm Member Posts: 1,730
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop : I think your 6K was alright. Some will say bet more but 6K was probably enough to do the job without overcommitting yourself. Turn the 7s into the 8s and the 6K would have got through.
    Posted by BigBluster
    Yes, I agree with that, but what I mean to say is that should I be betting at all on the flop when I can be bet off of my nice draw so easily?  If I bet 6000, I get raised to about 15-18k and I can't get a fold when I shove.  If I check, someone bets maybe 10k, I can shove and get alot of hands to fold, or I see a free card when they check.
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster Member Posts: 1,075
    edited March 2011
    Basically you're asking whether you should have made the c-bet when it was checked round to you? Didn't realise that was the question - thought you were asking what to do following the raise!

    I can see arguments for and against. This is a very marginal situation with three other players: I would probably have just checked myself with your hand but bet out with either a complete miss or a hand I was willing to go all the way with.
    I certainly wouldn't have check-raised but I'm sure that play would have plenty of support on this forum.


     
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  • WilhelmWilhelm Member Posts: 1,730
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    Basically you're asking whether you should have made the c-bet when it was checked round to you? Didn't realise that was the question - thought you were asking what to do following the raise! I can see arguments for and against. This is a very marginal situation with three other players: I would probably have just checked myself with your hand but bet out with either a complete miss or a hand I was willing to go all the way with. I certainly wouldn't have check-raised but I'm sure that play would have plenty of support on this forum.  
    Posted by BigBluster
    Thanks for your thoughts. 
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited March 2011
    Am I the only one who really doesn't like the pre-flop raise?
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  • WilhelmWilhelm Member Posts: 1,730
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    Am I the only one who really doesn't like the pre-flop raise?
    Posted by CLIOKID
    What's wrong with the pre-flop raise?
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop : What's wrong with the pre-flop raise?
    Posted by Wilhelm
    The sizing is ok.

    I just don't like raising A6 suited after a short stack limper tbh.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited March 2011
    Yh totally agree snap fold pre for me.
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  • WilhelmWilhelm Member Posts: 1,730
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop : The sizing is ok. I just don't like raising A6 suited after a short stack limper tbh.
    Posted by CLIOKID
    It's the final table.  Everyone's short stacked.
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID Member Posts: 783
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop : It's the final table.  Everyone's short stacked.
    Posted by Wilhelm

    The limper has about 15 BB's, most others on the table have 30+.

    I just don't think it is a hand that plays well post flop in this situation.




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  • WilhelmWilhelm Member Posts: 1,730
    edited March 2011
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop:
    In Response to Re: Nice draw on the flop : The limper has about 15 BB's, most others on the table have 30+. I just don't think it is a hand that plays well post flop in this situation.
    Posted by CLIOKID
    That's fair, but if I'm not raising these hands I'm not raising enough on a 5 handed table with serial limpers imo.
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