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MTT, Final Table Bubble, room to 3b fold?

DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
edited April 2011 in The Poker Clinic

The cut off has raised from the cut off 3 of the previous 4 times, and taken it down uncontested.

The average stack in the tournament is 12/13 xbb

Googligan and Juckus are very short, like 3/4/5xbb .......

We're on the bubble....

Can I 3b then fold to a shove?

* Make sure you work out my stack at the start of the hand, rather than after my raise. Thanx,
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
gooligan Small blind  600.00 600.00 2600.00
djp1585 Big blind  1200.00 1800.00 19160.00
  Your hole cards
  • 9
  • A
     
bliksum Fold     
JUCKUS Fold     
stacei Raise  2400.00 4200.00 19907.64
DOHHHHHHH Raise  5328.79 9528.79 12888.35
gooligan Fold     
djp1585 Fold     
stacei
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Comments

  • AcidMan27AcidMan27 Member Posts: 3,752
    edited April 2011
    I suppose you could fold to a shove having just over 10xBB's left. In these spots I tend to just shove rather than 3bet but that's probably why I bubble so often.


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  • pryce6pryce6 Member Posts: 1,058
    edited April 2011
    at what point do you think the standard on here + eff stack sizes leaves room to 3bet at this stage lol. What probably happens is he flats, you brick the flop and end up shoving as a bluff.

    3bet folding is bad, considering it's the bubble and someone has opened before you I'd just fold.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2011
    Fold but like you say he could be stealing, but hey i guess if he shove's over your 3 bet then you have to fold your A9 unless you can put him on a loose Kx range. He could be stealing with a wide range and maybe the top of this range Kx your are beating but he may fancy shoving you off your hand or just making a strange flat with his marginal, you miss and he shoves you feel like you donated your chips.

    Suppose the eaisest play is a fold or shove not 3bet ) I vote for FOLD and wait for a better spot against this stealer.
    Plus it looks like you have placed a third of your stack in this 3bet, can you fold ? Will he notice this and will he fold his marginal or shove with a better hand knowing you can't fold, It's a lovely game.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited April 2011
    3bet folding here is scary bad.
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  • RogueCellRogueCell Member Posts: 533
    edited April 2011
    Agree with the poster who says that the time for 3betting has long since passed.  Pretty pointless and I think a lot of people will read 3bet as weak i.e. unwilling to commit stack.
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  • djblacke04djblacke04 Member Posts: 1,778
    edited April 2011


    I have to ask,why are you betting with the A9 here?

    do you think Stacei is trying to bully the short stacks with minimum raise?

    looking at stack sizes,pot odds, and so on, i dont think you can fold,if you want to win the tournement,and also i think probably stacei folds anyway...

    personally i read min reraise as strong,asking for a call....

    what do you do if she flat calls,and you miss the flop in position?

    do you call cbet?

    myself i think a9 is just a little to weak,AJ or above i make the move...but what do i know...:)




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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2011
    wow!!! I didn't expect to get crucified.

    We're on the bubble and therea 2 stacks below 5xbb.

    I'm playing against the chip leader, I can hurt them I don't want to bubble, and I'm sure they don't want to either.

    If they 4b shove I can fold, and still have an average stack. They never shove worse. It's an easy fold.

    I want to give myself the best chance of winning the tournament without bubbling. 

    I 3-bet, they folded, and I won the tourny! ;)

    Still like my play given the avg stack size, bubble dynamic, and the fact that "our stace" has min raised the cut off 3 out of the last 4 times without resistance.

    -----------------------------------------------------

    If she flats, which she shouldn't, I'm in a bad spot, but at least I have position and can probably outplay her post flop.
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited April 2011
    I don't play many tournies but I'd just be shoving with 100% of my 3betting range.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited April 2011
    Cuddle for DOOOOH!

    In general the play is ok looking at the stealer situation, and the return of 4000 odd chips seems like a reasonale play. The only question you have to ask is to yourself.
    If I make this 3bet will I be folding to a 4bet shove.
    I would suggest you would have to fold like you say, but not liking it much.

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  • djblacke04djblacke04 Member Posts: 1,778
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: MTT, Final Table Bubble, room to 3b fold?:
    wow!!! I didn't expect to get crucified. We're on the bubble and therea 2 stacks below 5xbb. I'm playing against the chip leader, I can hurt them I don't want to bubble, and I'm sure they don't want to either. If they 4b shove I can fold, and still have an average stack. They never shove worse. It's an easy fold. I want to give myself the best chance of winning the tournament without bubbling.  I 3-bet, they folded, and I won the tourny! ;) Still like my play given the avg stack size, bubble dynamic, and the fact that "our stace" has min raised the cut off 3 out of the last 4 times without resistance. ----------------------------------------------------- If she flats, which she shouldn't, I'm in a bad spot, but at least I have position and can probably outplay her post flop.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH

    my only issue is that she has to call 3000 into 12000 pot...odds at 4-1



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  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited April 2011
    As a general rule of the thumb you should never put in 1/3 of your stack or more and then fold. In this spot you're just below that threshold, so folding to a shove can just about be justified, but you will have wasted tons of chips if you do. For that reason I prefer to shove or fold only in this spot, that way you give the villain the tough decision, not yourself. Considering the dynamic you describe a shove looks best if you're already in the money (I'm not sure if you're on the FT bubble, or the money bubble). If this was right on the money bubble a fold might be more prudent.
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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: MTT, Final Table Bubble, room to 3b fold?:
    wow!!! I didn't expect to get crucified. We're on the bubble and therea 2 stacks below 5xbb. I'm playing against the chip leader, I can hurt them I don't want to bubble, and I'm sure they don't want to either. If they 4b shove I can fold, and still have an average stack. They never shove worse. It's an easy fold. I want to give myself the best chance of winning the tournament without bubbling.  I 3-bet, they folded, and I won the tourny! ;) Still like my play given the avg stack size, bubble dynamic, and the fact that "our stace" has min raised the cut off 3 out of the last 4 times without resistance. ----------------------------------------------------- If she flats, which she shouldn't, I'm in a bad spot, but at least I have position and can probably outplay her post flop.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    i think this is fine given the situation, you have a plan before you 3bet you think they fold alot, good players take advantage of the bubble and better players take advantage of the advantage takers, wp boss
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  • ratedRKOratedRKO Member Posts: 64
    edited April 2011

    I shove or fold (prob shove). but the more i think about 3bet/foldin the more i LIKE it. wp

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  • N1CKN1CK Member Posts: 1,453
    edited April 2011

    i definitely think shoving is the best option in fact i think its never a mistake to shove any ace here, id rather 3bet/fold hands like kx suited or hands that can flop good if your called that your happy to fold to a shove, i guess the ace could be like a bit of an insurance card....but im  fine with Dohhhhs play here i think its harsh that he gets slated for showing a bit of thinking and trying to exploit good situations
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited April 2011
    I personally dont like it, but hey ho it worked!

    Reason i dont like it is A9 is ghay, i think its a good move if u think they are going to fold a good % of the time and i mean very high % FWIW

    I would be shoving in ur spot or fold rather then the raise
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2011
    I think I'm spending 4.2xbbish to win 3.5xbb.......so I dunno the maths but it probably has to work like 60% or something to make it a profitable move?

    Never really think like that tho I just do what I think is right everytime.

    Thanx for all replies, good to see one with different opinions.
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