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Think i've got to the bottom of it.
AMYBR
Member Posts: 3,432
I think I realise why I'm a losing online player.
After sifting through my HH, profit/loss, Tournament results/cash results I think i have the answer and its **** embarressing.
Practically 85% of my online losses are cash. Taking away the cash element I'm in 5 figure profit from MTT's, but factor in the cash loses and I'm 9k down overall (online).
I've been multitabling alot this past week, mainly 6 cash tables. It was the observed trends that made me realise my problem. They all follow the same theme. Grind out profit, then steadily watch it drain away over the session. I'd always put this down to bad luck /me losing focus. Bur it isnt. Before i continue let me just say that I've never claimed to be a successful or excellent online cash player.
It is simply that the majority of my cash opponents are reading me far better than I am reading them, thus I'm not getting paid + being lead around the table by my nose, both equally a depreiciating BR.
I have no intention of proving my live success to anyone, but I do earn my living live, mainly from MTT's. I do make money live cash, but I do read people very well live. This is pretty hard for me to admit, but as you've all been pretty patient with my threads i figured I owed you the outcome of my research.
I guess some people dont have the right skillset for online. I simply dont read well, or vary my cash game up enough. Which is odd because live i do.
But again to sumarise. my online cash game is c/rap.
However my online tournament game is strong. I hope now that i've realised my biggest error I can learn from it and stick to MTT S+G
After sifting through my HH, profit/loss, Tournament results/cash results I think i have the answer and its **** embarressing.
Practically 85% of my online losses are cash. Taking away the cash element I'm in 5 figure profit from MTT's, but factor in the cash loses and I'm 9k down overall (online).
I've been multitabling alot this past week, mainly 6 cash tables. It was the observed trends that made me realise my problem. They all follow the same theme. Grind out profit, then steadily watch it drain away over the session. I'd always put this down to bad luck /me losing focus. Bur it isnt. Before i continue let me just say that I've never claimed to be a successful or excellent online cash player.
It is simply that the majority of my cash opponents are reading me far better than I am reading them, thus I'm not getting paid + being lead around the table by my nose, both equally a depreiciating BR.
I have no intention of proving my live success to anyone, but I do earn my living live, mainly from MTT's. I do make money live cash, but I do read people very well live. This is pretty hard for me to admit, but as you've all been pretty patient with my threads i figured I owed you the outcome of my research.
I guess some people dont have the right skillset for online. I simply dont read well, or vary my cash game up enough. Which is odd because live i do.
But again to sumarise. my online cash game is c/rap.
However my online tournament game is strong. I hope now that i've realised my biggest error I can learn from it and stick to MTT S+G
Comments
I sat with my housemate and discussed this in great length today, really breaking it down into clearly defined faults.
In all fairness DOH it was a piece of your advice that quickly got to the source of the issue. By hugely increasing volume I couldnt ignore the nuances of each table i was sat at. I'm going to go into quite abit of detail here so I can refer back to it myself in the future.
I am one of the loosest online cash game players you'll see. Think Sammy Farha on an average day. But I have always told myself that what I do is intentional. I splash equity all over the place, never folding hands with intrinsic value when sat deep (300+BB) even to standard 3 bets OOP (with the intention of playing cautiously post flop). I have always justified it to myself that this is a premium way to get paid, simply because your opponents never can really put you on a hand. Enabling huge overbets and getting called weak through streets. Have always been happy to sacrifice the equity for the overall design.
Because your playing heedless of position or fear you do tend to get paid early doors. Now, no offense to anyone, but I've never given low/medium stakes cash players much respect/credit. This has been my huge downfall. I've dragged my successful tournament ego to the table (which is about as tight/aggressive as you'll come across) and I think I've unconciously been trying to get into pots simply to out play people post, or take flops with drawy holdings to connect. Again this does tend to be profitable in the short term...till you come up on the wrong side and end up at 0.00.
By increasing the volume significantly it became very evident that the majority of players I was sat with knew precisely what my game plan was. They quickly came to differenciate what my range and price was, knowing precisely how much i'd draw to, folding in the event my hand was made or insta folding wet boards.
As I said I am very loose online cash. So I became infuriated when every time i 3bet strong everyones hands instantly went into the muck. Shocker the fish is 3 betting again right? But again this is a result of me not giving people any respect. Its the difference between entering a lot of pots smallball and then sending up a rare flare. My online cash game is totally polarised, my more experienced opponents reading me like an open 3 page book.
With increasing my tables from 2 to 6, seeing the same effect on each table - the quick fishy gains followed by the good players adapting - it became as clear as day. So to test what i had thought i figured out I 3 bet pre on all tables, all but 2 getting through. Then re raised the two remaining flops (IP) and it was instant muck.
Thats about the long and short of it. I carry my arrogance onto the cash table, read people badly and dont give them any of the credit or respect they deserve. They adept to my game very quickly, propably pretty much knowing where they are the whole time. Then theres me sat happy to make hero calls because I'm appling my tournament knowledge to a deep cash game. Great when your right, but just dumb in the longrun, which is what cash is about, the long run.
Stupid stupid me. I actually went to bed with a smile on my face though. Its easy to get angry at the software, opponents, poker gods. But when you realise that the core fault with your game....is you..its kind of liberating
I really ought to stick to what I'm good at. Tournaments live and online. I dont read people well enough online cash and my ego definately is an obstacle. I hereby concede the argument that online cash is probably harder than live cash.
Doh/Beany/Nick/Lolraise If you've read this do you think I'm overanalysing (which I have a tendancy to do, or has my ego just kept me blind to these simple truths?
I kind of feel as dumb as hellmuth seems sitting down at a high stakes cash games thinking he's the don. The guy is (like it or not) the most successful tournament player of all time, yet he's the donkey at any high stakes cash table.
meh hellmuth isnt most successfull tourney player imo, he just has the most bracelets, i would judge poker success purely on $$$ won
1st seidel
2nd Negreanu
3rd Ivey
4th GOLD lol
5th Hellmuth
maybe you gotta judge it in recent years say last 8 as better fields and more optimal players and dont count wsop me winnings
there is a difference imo
But also to add Hellmuth, most bracelets, most FT's, most T cashs. Definately not the best player. But statistacally the most successful. He did play practically every event for many years though.