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Top pair, top kicker

UnknownUnknown
edited April 2011 in The Poker Clinic

Guys I would really appreciate your help here.

Sorry about the format, I can't find the hand

I accept here I have got a myself into a spot and am probably behind, but know I have outs.  I have broke the hand down into my thoughts.  Can you tell me if my thoughts are ok? And what I can do better.

I will post result after a few replies so as not to be results orientated.  I will also post reasons after for my posting here, doing so now might persuade you.  This is a two part question, I will post second part when I post next part of the hand

2/4p cash, no reads.

/>MrWh1te joined this hand.  Dealt As 9s
/>zeusy called for £0.04.
/>max85 folded
/>40G folded
/>MrWh1te raised for £0.20.
/>blazinAA folded
/>Villain called for £0.16.
/>zeusy called for £0.16.
Pretty standard at this level

/>Dealing the flop (6s,9c,2h).
/>Villain checked.
/>zeusy bet £0.04.
/>MrWh1te raised for £0.74.
Raise to protect hand, its not very strong but I have every reason to believe I am ahead.

>Villain called for £0.74.
/>zeusy has gone all in for £1.48.
/>MrWh1te called for £0.78.
Pot a decent size.  Villain doesn't scare me too much, he is very passive and again only flat called my raise.

/>Villain has gone all in for £6.27.
Now I know I am in trouble, but I only have £2.32 left behind and would need to invest that to win the £6.74 in the pot.  I have to put him on sixes here or maybe nines?  If not, the only thing he can have is two pair, leaving me with outs.  Zeusy is irrelavant now, I have matched his all in by this time.  Fold or call? 

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Comments

  • MrWh1teMrWh1te Member Posts: 963
    edited April 2011
    Oh and I am not anonymous, I posted that hand
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited April 2011
    Tbh, at this level, I probably call and hope to see 9 with a worse kicker, you are getting a good price aswell.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2011
    I would jam after Zeuse raises.


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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited April 2011
    Sorry mis-read, agree with Dohh
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited April 2011

    when you raise flop it should be for value rather than to protect. I wouldnt raise a normal size bet but when someone mindonks like that just ignore it and cbet as normal. I wouldnt make it potsize, but this may well be fine at 4NL.

    His hand looks really like a set, maybe 69 ,some overpairs , I cant see many playing 78 like that. I fold I dont think you have enough equity getting 3/1, but idk maybe people overplay 9x all the time at 4NL

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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Top pair, top kicker:
    I would jam after Zeuse raises.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Reasons to jam when villain has shown no strength?
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited April 2011
    £2.32 left behind, pot is already around £4, calling would leave him pot committed with a vulnerable hand, jam for the win. 
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited April 2011
    ^^^^^^^
    what are we vunerable to?
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2011
    Yeh the hand isn't strong enough to flat, what we gonne do on the turn if a picture card comes? 

    Bet now? Check call? Check fold?

    We don't like many turns, and would have to call it off anyway, I wanna protect my hand. 

    People call off really light at nl4 here, I'm probably more worried about the guy who min donk leads than the guy behind (at least I would be if I had to act before seeing the big stack jam, which obv I would have to) as he has at least made an aggressive action. 

    tp tk is enough for me to get it in the way it's played.
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Top pair, top kicker:
    Yeh the hand isn't strong enough to flat, what we gonne do on the turn if a picture card comes?  Bet now? Check call? Check fold? We don't like many turns, and would have to call it off anyway, I wanna protect my hand.  People call off really light at nl4 here, I'm probably more worried about the guy who min donk leads than the guy behind (at least I would be if I had to act before seeing the big stack jam, which obv I would have to) as he has at least made an aggressive action.  tp tk is enough for me to get it in the way it's played.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Im not saying jamming after shorty goes all in is bad. But doing it to protect is crazy. Most of the range we are ahead of that will call a shove has 3-5 outs. If he hits one good luck to him. Now maybe if we flat some turn cards may scare him off hands that would call a shove on flop. But our decision should be made on which is most likely to get his stack over the line if we are happy to stack off.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2011

    So you like a flat with the intention of betting 2.32 on any turn card?

    Yeh that's ok too., as long as we're never folding.

    I just think theres a good chance he will call off with worse, he has money invested, and wont like to leave it behind. Wouldn't rule out KJ/KQ/AJ/AQ/AK stacking off behind us on the flop either. 


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  • MrWh1teMrWh1te Member Posts: 963
    edited April 2011
    I dont think there was any way I could fold there.
    If it had gone to the turn, I would have shoved all in, I am not really able to fold in my head :p

    Ok Next part

    IF he has QQ, as played,
    1) can you have put him on QQ by now
    2) is his play good or bad to flat call both the flop and preflop with three players?
    3) if you had QQ as part of the range, would that make it a fold?
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited April 2011
    He had QQ then?? looool.

    DOHHH does another stack :(

    He needs to 3b pre and raise the flop if he has QQ. No I can't put him on it. 

    If I had QQ as part of his range, there would have to be other hands like TT and JJ, but it's still a small %age of the likely hands he could hold.

    If we knew QQ was possible here, we would have more info on him than u are letting on.

    How do we know QQ is possible? How did he show down QQ (or similar) previously?

    The decision is much easier with history.

    If there's no history/reads, I wouldn't think QQ was possible.

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  • MrWh1teMrWh1te Member Posts: 963
    edited April 2011
    Exactly, the decision is much easier with history, thats exactly why outcomes shouldnt be shown before discussion, because it influences whether you try and let it or not.

    I didnt have any other info other than what I gave you, it wasnt part of my range.
    I wanted to check that you guys wouldn't put him on it either.

    He did have QQ, I did call.  Then I got hit with a load of insults about being a fish when I runner'd him for a flush.
    He didn't seem to get that I couldnt have expected him to be on it.  Had his hand held, it would have been a quick 'wp', notes made and move on but he just wouldn't let it go. 
    I think he should be betting both flop and preflop too, especially three handed.

    But he just got me thinking and I started doubting myself.  I do that too much :/
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited April 2011
    In Response to Re: Top pair, top kicker:
    I dont think there was any way I could fold there. If it had gone to the turn, I would have shoved all in, I am not really able to fold in my head :p Ok Next part IF he has QQ, as played, 1) can you have put him on QQ by now 2) is his play good or bad to flat call both the flop and preflop with three players? 3) if you had QQ as part of the range, would that make it a fold?
    Posted by MrWh1te
    I think you can fold when villain check/calls then shoves over an all in and a call. Its a fishy move but I think you are nearly always way behind when it happens. I really dont think he shows up with 78 or 9x . I dont mind a shove when shorty goes all in and obv you are shoving turn if you flat and villain flats behind, but as hand played out I can find a fold

    1. You cant put him on QQ, but I would certainly think TT,JJ are possibilities. QQ is not one of his likely hands
    2. His play sucks
    3. Well, as doh said, if he can have QQ it puts other overpairs in his range also. I think its a fold as played
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