Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer

TommyD

Just had a spirited HU clash with Mr F.  This is the defining hand.  I think it's just a cooler but I want to have a close look at my raise on the turn.  Should I slow down here when I know any raise makes me pot stuck and he turns up with the nuts here a good amount of the time?  Am I being too aggressive here?
 

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
TommyD	Small blind		£1.50	£1.50	£256.50
IANFRAZER	Big blind		£3.00	£4.50	£335.45
	Your hole cards	8 9 9 6
TommyD	Raise		£6.00	£10.50	£250.50
IANFRAZER	Call		£4.50	£15.00	£330.95
Flop
		9 10 4
IANFRAZER	Check
TommyD	Bet		£9.00	£24.00	£241.50
IANFRAZER	Call		£9.00	£33.00	£321.95
Turn
		7
IANFRAZER	Bet		£33.00	£66.00	£288.95
TommyD	Raise		£132.00	£198.00	£109.50
IANFRAZER	All-in		£288.95	£486.95	£0.00
TommyD	All-in		£109.50	£596.45	£0.00
IANFRAZER	Unmatched bet		£80.45	£516.00	£80.45
TommyD	Show	8 9 9 6
IANFRAZER	Show	Q 8 Q J
River
		2
IANFRAZER	Win	Straight to the Jack	£515.00

Talon

Just looking through this and it is a very interesting hand.So lets go through it step by step.

 Preflop: As you know your raise here is pretty meaningless as is his call so we can ignore this.

 Flop: Not a bad flop for you with middle set but it is a very draw heavy board so i like your lead out but i would have preferred a pot bet here. Your bet gave him just over 2.5 to 1 to call so he was immediately priced in with any draw so his call is no surprise and could have him with virtually any 4 cards.

 Turn: Very bad card for you as not only does it put another draw on the board but it also completes other draws.When he leads out at you the warning bells should start to ring.If he has the made straight at this point you are now a 4 to 1 underdog in the hand.You now have 3 choices at this point. Fold which for me would be too tight especially HU.Call which is weak but at least affords you the opportunity to house up or better and at least retain pot control.Raise, this is the more aggressive play but as you understood would totally pot commit you to the hand at quite possibly a big underdog.So for me  i would definately favour the flat followed by the reluctant fold on the river.



  When we look at his turn lead out followed by the reraise shove without considering this to be a bluff there are only a limited number of hands we can put him on. we can pretty much discount sets because TT or 44 would have shown more interest in the flop and 77 is unlikely to commit himself on that turn.This leaves us with made straights or combi oesd and flush draws.In this situation if you are even up against JhQh5s6s you are only about a 55% favourite against a guy only holding Q high.But as stated before you cannot raise to fold on the turn.


  With this hand as i said i would favour a flat on the turn and a fold when the brick lands even if he was on the draw and bluffs you off on the river then you will only have lost a small pot which you can easily recover from.I suppose the only thing that surprises me in this hand was his flat call on the flop after he had hit it as well as he had.

TommyD

In Response to Re: Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer:

Just looking through this and it is a very interesting hand.So lets go through it step by step.  Preflop: As you know your raise here is pretty meaningless as is his call so we can ignore this.  Flop: Not a bad flop for you with middle set but it is a very draw heavy board so i like your lead out but i would have preferred a pot bet here. Your bet gave him just over 2.5 to 1 to call so he was immediately priced in with any draw so his call is no surprise and could have him with virtually any 4 cards.  Turn: Very bad card for you as not only does it put another draw on the board but it also completes other draws.When he leads out at you the warning bells should start to ring.If he has the made straight at this point you are now a 4 to 1 underdog in the hand.You now have 3 choices at this point. Fold which for me would be too tight especially HU.Call which is weak but at least affords you the opportunity to house up or better and at least retain pot control.Raise, this is the more aggressive play but as you understood would totally pot commit you to the hand at quite possibly a big underdog.So for me  i would definately favour the flat followed by the reluctant fold on the river.   When we look at his turn lead out followed by the reraise shove without considering this to be a bluff there are only a limited number of hands we can put him on. we can pretty much discount sets because TT or 44 would have shown more interest in the flop and 77 is unlikely to commit himself on that turn.This leaves us with made straights or combi oesd and flush draws.In this situation if you are even up against JhQh5s6s you are only about a 55% favourite against a guy only holding Q high.But as stated before you cannot raise to fold on the turn.   With this hand as i said i would favour a flat on the turn and a fold when the brick lands even if he was on the draw and bluffs you off on the river then you will only have lost a small pot which you can easily recover from.I suppose the only thing that surprises me in this hand was his flat call on the flop after he had hit it as well as he had.
Posted by Talon

Thanks for the detail reply Talon.

Say if I flatted the turn, am I really folding the 2nd nuts with the lower straight to a brick on the river?  I know he turns up with the nuts here a lot as played but is there a case for call turn, call river?

Looking back I think I got over excited.  The lead out on the turn is either the nuts or some kind of double flush/straight combo draw crazy thing.  I turn the lower straight and have house and flush extensions and decide to make it a massive pot.

Remember this is a HU table against an aggressive opponent on a dripping wet board.  Is it not too tight to slow down with the 2nd nuts and a bucket load of extensions?  Am I not losing value here or is it the nuts so much it's -ev?

Talon

There is an arguement for a call on the river which if the bet is not too big then fine. But the thing to really bear in mind here is that you are playing against someone who knows what they are doing and not some newbie.Any river bet unless it is a 3 street planned bluff is not going to be made by any hand that you are beating and at best would be a split pot.

  Laying down second nuts is an extremly silly thing to do in NLHE but it is the true brilliance of the omaha player who can do this especially when they are behind.Maybe i am too tight a player to be looking at folding the river in this situation but like i said you would only be beating a bluff here.Against a newer player i would consider the possibility of calling or even raising because they would get excited with a set of sevens on that board.

  These are just my thoughts and others will say that you should be getting it allin on the turn everytime but wouldnt the world be a boring place if we all agreed on every aspect of everything.

TommyD

In Response to Re: Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer:

There is an arguement for a call on the river which if the bet is not too big then fine. But the thing to really bear in mind here is that you are playing against someone who knows what they are doing and not some newbie.Any river bet unless it is a 3 street planned bluff is not going to be made by any hand that you are beating and at best would be a split pot.   Laying down second nuts is an extremly silly thing to do in NLHE but it is the true brilliance of the omaha player who can do this especially when they are behind.Maybe i am too tight a player to be looking at folding the river in this situation but like i said you would only be beating a bluff here.Against a newer player i would consider the possibility of calling or even raising because they would get excited with a set of sevens on that board.   These are just my thoughts and others will say that you should be getting it allin on the turn everytime but wouldnt the world be a boring place if we all agreed on every aspect of everything.
Posted by Talon

Just putting the questions out there Colin, I really respect your opinion and I'm very glad you're 'in the thread.'  I'm trying to MOT my game, plugging the massive leaks (hopefully), if you had advocated my line taken I would probably be asking the reverse questions.  Just trying to work out standard spots where I'm ahead v the range or if I'm just spewing money.

River decisions are a mile apart from turn decisions IMO.  Say I flatted the turn and saw that river brick.  Now my river decision facing say a pot bet (pretty sure that's what the bet would be) is odds of nuts against bluff catch at 2 to 1.  I never raise the river here v anyone with any decent PLO pedigree.

The more I think about it the more I think player image was a real issue.  Like I said before, this is early days in the game and I had never played Ian HU PLO cash before so was running the image on reputation.  Of course I know he's a very good player but I probably levelled myself into thinking he turns up with combo draws here more than he actually does.  What is important is what his image of me is.  Am I a newbie, was my flop lead a NLHE style c-bet which he has decided to 'stop N Go' if the turn changes the board texture as this turn has done?  I probably have taken a much too aggressive line here as I am a lot more readless than I first thought.

FWIW I was on a 55% favourite on the flop but only a 42.5% underdog on the turn.  Gotta love the fine margins in PLO

HITMAN_RV

Fascinating, not really played PLO at all, but want to learn, so will look out for more of these!!

Excellently well written, as usual, both!!   Ty & GL

AJW1976

In Response to Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer:

Just had a spirited HU clash with Mr F.  This is the defining hand.  I think it's just a cooler but I want to have a close look at my raise on the turn.  Should I slow down here when I know any raise makes me pot stuck and he turns up with the nuts here a good amount of the time?  Am I being too aggressive here?   Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance TommyD Small blind   £1.50 £1.50 £256.50 IANFRAZER Big blind   £3.00 £4.50 £335.45   Your hole cards 8 9 9 6       TommyD Raise   £6.00 £10.50 £250.50 IANFRAZER Call   £4.50 £15.00 £330.95 Flop     9 10 4       IANFRAZER Check         TommyD Bet   £9.00 £24.00 £241.50 IANFRAZER Call   £9.00 £33.00 £321.95 Turn     7       IANFRAZER Bet   £33.00 £66.00 £288.95 TommyD Raise   £132.00 £198.00 £109.50 IANFRAZER All-in   £288.95 £486.95 £0.00 TommyD All-in   £109.50 £596.45 £0.00 IANFRAZER Unmatched bet   £80.45 £516.00 £80.45 TommyD Show 8 9 9 6       IANFRAZER Show Q 8 Q J       River     2       IANFRAZER Win Straight to the Jack £515.00
Posted by TommyD

u SHOULDNT HAVE RE-RAISED THE TURN, SHOULDA JUST FLATTED  SEE IF RIVER PAIRED BOARD THEN U KNOW FOR DEFO U HAVE HIM BEAT....

I HAD A BAD RUN AT PLO ON THIS SITE AND THEY SET YOU UP OR ACTION NO QUESTION ABOUT IT,...I WOULDNT HAVE COMMMITED ALL MY STACK JUST ON TRIPS THERE THOUGH WHEN IT WAS OBVS FRAZER AHD  A MADE HAND TO BEGIN WITH.....

AJW1976

AND REMEMBER THERES MORE VARIENCE ,.VERY HARD GAME TO GRASP,..WHAT WOULD MAKE IT INTERESTING IS IF THEY COULD RUN THE HAND TWICE AS THEY DO ON FULLTILT AT THE TOP TIER LEVELS..

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer:

AND REMEMBER THERES MORE VARIENCE ,.VERY HARD GAME TO GRASP,..WHAT WOULD MAKE IT INTERESTING IS IF THEY COULD RUN THE HAND TWICE AS THEY DO ON FULLTILT AT THE TOP TIER LEVELS..
Posted by AJW1976

So they could make sure they rig it right and set it up so that the same people don't win too many pots?

Talon

 In the question of image the first thing that most people do when they are up against unfamiliar players is to assume they know what they are doing until prooved otherwise. And logically noone would be sat at a 1.5/3 table if they were only learning the game.So with that in mind i would guess that he would give you credit for at least  a fairly good idea of how to play the game.

  Yes he is more than capable of betting out with big combi draws but the default setting should not be that this is what he has.On the wettest of wet boards sometimes you just have to give them credit.

TommyD

In Response to Re: Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer:

AND REMEMBER THERES MORE VARIENCE ,.VERY HARD GAME TO GRASP,..WHAT WOULD MAKE IT INTERESTING IS IF THEY COULD RUN THE HAND TWICE AS THEY DO ON FULLTILT AT THE TOP TIER LEVELS..
Posted by AJW1976

AJW

With all due respect this wasn't my first rodeo.  I hope people would see me as a decent PLO reg, at the very least I think it's fair to say I have some idea about the game.

Thanks for posting, the 'deal it twice' argument has always intrigued me.  Personally I hate it.  You've got someone in a 70/30 spot, I want the lot.  If they hit I've done nothing wrong, reload and keep it going.  I don't want to give them an extra chance to chop.  And if I'm 30/70, well it's binko bango bongo time

AJW1976

In Response to Re: Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer:

In Response to Re: Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer : AJW With all due respect this wasn't my first rodeo.  I hope people would see me as a decent PLO reg, at the very least I think it's fair to say I have some idea about the game. Thanks for posting, the 'deal it twice' argument has always intrigued me.  Personally I hate it.  You've got someone in a 70/30 spot, I want the lot.  If they hit I've done nothing wrong, reload and keep it going.  I don't want to give them an extra chance to chop.  And if I'm 30/70, well it's binko bango bongo time
Posted by TommyD

No probs ,Think  u need a fair whack of a bankroll on here to be able to manage the swings that plo offers,...not the same as playing  weekly tourneys or satts, u defo need to have a bankroll ,i personally dont have one and i think anybody who says that u  should have one is either non-recreational  or simply has money to burn that they invest it into something that bears tnext to no interest.¬

i lost a shed load last week ,felt like they were lining themselves up against me.

youre not a bad player tommy i think weve played before,but when playing plo  its all about the swings....good or bad  xxx hope this helps

TommyD

In Response to Re: Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer:

 In the question of image the first thing that most people do when they are up against unfamiliar players is to assume they know what they are doing until prooved otherwise. And logically noone would be sat at a 1.5/3 table if they were only learning the game.So with that in mind i would guess that he would give you credit for at least  a fairly good idea of how to play the game.   Yes he is more than capable of betting out with big combi draws but the default setting should not be that this is what he has.On the wettest of wet boards sometimes you just have to give them credit.
Posted by Talon

I take your point this is normally true.  Sadly I saw someone on here I know and like playing much, much higher than they normally play and to be honest way out of where they should be playing.  But I agree with you on the whole.

I posted this hand on another place as well.  Safe to say the general consensus is I should have flatted the turn, which I can accept for two very good and different explanations (Talon's being one of them).  There is a split on whether I should call or fold the river as it came if I flat the turn.

I'm going to try and through a curve out there in one faint hope of defending a line I don't think was correct in review.  I will be facing a 99 pound bet on the end and will probably have to call.  So by flatting turn and river I save 100 pounds or so.  Now say after flatting the turn I hit the river.  Do you think Ian pays me off and if so how much?  Would he revert to check call?  Would he fold to a pot bet?  Is a flush worth less than a house?  Can I bet for full value as (barring making quads) I do not make the nuts?

A little side note.  I know there are not many posters here who ae PLO regs.  Even if you have never played the game if you have a question or comment please make it.

AJW1976

over a period of time and getting to know the variety and distinguished players ,and u could possibly datamine some of these through sharkscope or ptr /bluffratings ..the better you will become and feel more at ease in making those decisions...

gl man...

pod1

seriously aaron do you know who you talking to lol

TommyD

In Response to Re: Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer:

over a period of time and getting to know the variety and distinguished players ,and u could possibly datamine some of these through sharkscope or ptr /bluffratings ..the better you will become and feel more at ease in making those decisions... gl man...
Posted by AJW1976

Thank you

Skypoker is not on PTR yet, might be interesting if it ever does get on.

Talon

  The level that you play at and the quality of the opponents make all the difference in these situations.For example i was playing yesterday at 2p/4p on a full table with only 1 player that had my respect for their game.With this in mind i found myself raising river bets into multiple opponents with 4th or 5th nuts and getting paid off by worse hands. This was being done after saying on this thread to call turn and call or fold river.

   Some of the play at the low levels is a sight to behold because you have so many people learning the game at the correct level to do that.In many ways it means you have to change your own game because you will find people  calling pot sized bets with second pair or chasing 9 high flush draws on a paired board and also(my personal favourite) min betting down all the streets.Oh to have the roll to play against the better players and find out how good i can be in the best games.

TommyD

In Response to Re: Line Check - PLO HU Cash Versus Ian Frazer:

  The level that you play at and the quality of the opponents make all the difference in these situations.For example i was playing yesterday at 2p/4p on a full table with only 1 player that had my respect for their game.With this in mind i found myself raising river bets into multiple opponents with 4th or 5th nuts and getting paid off by worse hands. This was being done after saying on this thread to call turn and call or fold river.    Some of the play at the low levels is a sight to behold because you have so many people learning the game at the correct level to do that.In many ways it means you have to change your own game because you will find people  calling pot sized bets with second pair or chasing 9 high flush draws on a paired board and also(my personal favourite) min betting down all the streets.Oh to have the roll to play against the better players and find out how good i can be in the best games.
Posted by Talon

If I ever do a well mate I'll tell everyone how low my roll was in December of last year, the four months previously were the worst downswing of my life.  Very nearly quit the game.  It's a good story.  More to the point I built my original roll on another site from the equivalent levels of 2p/4p.  Just keep doing the right thing and you'll move on up mate.

In regards to the earlier part of your post, that shows you're on top of the game.  There are some people at 25p/50p that are similar (not as many though) and when I'm playing there I do the same as you.  Wonderful game this, no rule is ever 100% right or wrong.