Well played imo, The bubble is where you can hoover up chips from weaker players, you should be playing aggro enough that JJ is an easy stack off Posted by grantorino
Don't mistake elite 50/60 runner tourneys with the sort that this concept applies to, which generally have 1k+ runners and still number in the hundreds when the bubble's about to burst. Those tournaments (world series being a classic example) is where you have to kick into gear and look to steal as much as you can. This is a serious tourney with limited runners and we have 9 remaining- there's very few mugs about now, and from what I can tell- none at this table. It's a lot tougher to 'hoover up chips from weaker players' when there are none.
However, when there are weak and shortstacked players at the other table- you can let them bust out before making your move. Laddering does play a big part in tournaments, even top pros will use the laddering principle at times when they're comfortable.
What I wouldn't agree with is folding if you're short and trying to squeeze into the money that way. Then, take the aggressive stand and try for the double up to stand a chance of winning. With your chipstack you still have a great shot at winning if you fold this. The reward doesn't quite match the risk in this spot for me.
Yeah in this situation Young Gun youve played this perfectly imo as the 7+k in the pot when you shove is well worth taking when it is only a 4 handed table.Just soooo ul to run it into an overpair here xxx
In Response to Re: Sky Roller Bubble time, 6/9 What would you do? : Don't mistake elite 50/60 runner tourneys with the sort that this concept applies to, which generally have 1k+ runners and still number in the hundreds when the bubble's about to burst. Those tournaments (world series being a classic example) is where you have to kick into gear and look to steal as much as you can. This is a serious tourney with limited runners and we have 9 remaining- there's very few mugs about now, and from what I can tell- none at this table. It's a lot tougher to 'hoover up chips from weaker players' when there are none. However, when there are weak and shortstacked players at the other table- you can let them bust out before making your move. Laddering does play a big part in tournaments, even top pros will use the laddering principle at times when they're comfortable. What I wouldn't agree with is folding if you're short and trying to squeeze into the money that way. Then, take the aggressive stand and try for the double up to stand a chance of winning. With your chipstack you still have a great shot at winning if you fold this. The reward doesn't quite match the risk in this spot for me. Posted by DeucesLive
Whats the buy in for this £110 (Im honestly not sure)? does that make it elite? And some prob satted in, there will still likely be weak tight scared money on the bubble. Says somewhere in this thread that only 1 player seemed to be 3betting
Look we have 20BB and JJ four handed. Theres no guarantee the 8BB stacks will bust soon, unless villain is opening an extremely tight range its a clear shove imo, especially with the call in between.
If you are folding JJ to anopen do you think villain should fold QQ to the shove?
Edit: Im not sure how hoovering up chips will be difficult if you can open and people will think about folding JJ
I have to say well done on having the balls to play that hand aggressively, it's definitely a strong point of your game. Keep going and your time will come!
I spoke with DOHHHHHHH about this hand yesterday and I 100% do not shove in your situation tbh. JJ says that your a good player and "up and coming" and will do well in the future which is great to hear. In order to do well in the future though you need to increase your BR significantly and when a min cash virtually doubles your BR then for me you need to be sensible in these situations. With the stacks on the other tables you are basically locked in for the min cash so you could have achieved that easily and you still have a great stack in play in order to go FTW after the bubble bursts and each ladder achieved is a massive boost for both your BR and your poker future.
Right on the bankroll thought would make a big difference to min cash would have practically doubled it, but its just not how i play anymore it was pretty gutting at the time, but i go for the win in any tournament now this time it didnt pay of but im sure it will do next time The villain hadnt been overly aggressive as beaneh was doing all that, but had played against me a few times shoving over my raises, i reckon queens is problably the bottom end he would call with there but hey ho Posted by YOUNG_GUN
Going to leave the discussion about BR of min cashing aside for others to get into.
I think this is more marginal than it first appears. If Da Bean is reshoving/reraising a lot the villain here probably has tightened their opening range if Beaneh is still yet to act. 88+ AQ+ would be my blind stab in the dark having not watched the table or know the player. Makes it tighter and you will probably hate a call but shove is still fine.
me p ersonaly young gun had have folded on the bubble that raise u got to think your behind just got unlucky u run into queens can see why u called u win that pot your in a good positon to win the tournement
In Response to Re: Sky Roller Bubble time, 6/9 What would you do? : Whats the buy in for this £110 (Im honestly not sure)? does that make it elite? And some prob satted in, there will still likely be weak tight scared money on the bubble. Says somewhere in this thread that only 1 player seemed to be 3betting Look we have 20BB and JJ four handed. Theres no guarantee the 8BB stacks will bust soon, unless villain is opening an extremely tight range its a clear shove imo, especially with the call in between. If you are folding JJ to anopen do you think villain should fold QQ to the shove? Edit: Im not sure how hoovering up chips will be difficult if you can open and people will think about folding JJ Posted by grantorino
When I say 'elite' field, I mean a small field with a high buyin- and by sky standards, 110 is a high buyin. It's certainly the biggest regular tournament offered.
To give an example to show what I mean, let's imagine we're on the primo bubble- 30 paid, with a mincash around 90 and a win around 3500 (I think that's roughly the payout structure). Now, if you go from a mincash to winning, you're talking about a near 40x increase- which is substantial. The payouts are very top heavy, whether you satellite in or not- 90 is unlikely to be a gamechanging increase to your bankroll, and even if you quietly ladder to 10th, the amount only goes up to like 110 or so- still not much. So there's nothing to be gained by playing for a primo mincash, and in this spot- I 100% reshove with the jacks and take the race, knowing by winning you give yourself a great shot at FTing and getting into the big cash prizes.
This scenario is very different- a mincash (8th) is around 200 or so, with the win being around 2k? I have no idea what first prize is here, but I can't imagine it being more than 2k, someone can correct me if you know the payout structure. Assuming that's the case, the increase from mincash to winning is 10x- nothing like as big. Cashing in these 'elite' fields is the primary goal, IMO- especially if you can do it with a still playable stack. If you take your flip here, you've still got a tough job ahead, it's not going to get any easier.
The dynamic when the bubble is spread over 5+ tables is very, very different to two shorthanded tables on the bubble. A lot of people will indeed go into fold mode on a wider bubble, knowing someone else will be eliminated soon- you can easily take advantage of that. Not so much on a shorthanded bubble, it'll be more aggressive- the shortstacks know they can't just sit and let themselves blind away (which will happen quite quickly) and will most likely have a trainwreck before long.
Fair play to you for making the correct mathematical play, and having the balls to do it- but I think when a mincash doubles your bankroll, put 'correct' poker on the backburner. Get into the cash, then you can relax and play a bit more freely, the ones that can afford to take those risks are much better rolled for it, and can happily buy in direct to 110 tourneys.
Oh, and QQ is definitely a call here- it's almost on the marginal side, but QQ is dominating far too many reshoving hands, especially with 3k already invested, to fold. If he turns over AA/KK then so be it, if he turns AK then you take the flip. The gap between QQ and JJ in terms of calling power is huge, IMO.
I spoke with DOHHHHHHH about this hand yesterday and I 100% do not shove in your situation tbh. JJ says that your a good player and "up and coming" and will do well in the future which is great to hear. In order to do well in the future though you need to increase your BR significantly and when a min cash virtually doubles your BR then for me you need to be sensible in these situations. With the stacks on the other tables you are basically locked in for the min cash so you could have achieved that easily and you still have a great stack in play in order to go FTW after the bubble bursts and each ladder achieved is a massive boost for both your BR and your poker future. Posted by dylan12
In Response to Re: Sky Roller Bubble time, 6/9 What would you do? : You both mean flat call and set mine right? Not fold? ..... (just making sure) Posted by DOHHHHHHH
yeah for the price you can call, but i dont really wanna stick any more chips in without hitting a jack, when he shoves pre ok he could take it down but it dont guarantee him a cash,
i wouldn't even say just folding the jacks pre was bad considering how passive i would play them and being 3 way
Didn't want to get into the BR stuff but set mine with Kings?!?!? 4 Handed?!?!?!?
Right, if the BR jump is such a consideration let's do this properly like it's a VLV satellite bubble or something. If you're main objective is now to cash as we are on the bubble, we have 2 or 3 super shorties and we are a mid stack then you are time out folding everything, INCLUDING ACES.
Either go all the way one way or play without BR considerations. If we timeout fold everything (oh for H4H) we are 99% sure to cash correct? Folding everything is the most likely way to ensure a cash.
As I stated before I think this decision with jacks is a lot tighter than it is on face value but that is nothing to do with the BR situation. Regarding flatting with Kings I assume you are making a stop and go play on any non ace board? Or are you really set mining?
with the kings was making a point more than anything else, saying calling to set mine kings is just erm....well, his bankroll here is a HUGE factor on how he plays this hand infact it should be the only one.
the point is he shoves and tid he dont guarantee doubling his roll, he shoves and gets called he is prolly 60/40 dog at best vs the range that should call , and if he had KK he would be 60/40 fav i think
but hey its his money and he cares more about winning than doubling his roll then hes done nothing wrong
ICM measures $EV rather than chip EV so takes account of bubble, prize structure etc. If someone ran this through an ICM calculator it will tell you the equity you need to make getting it in profitable
Nick, if we are 60/40 dog to calling range can we not shove atc here, assuming villain opens a reasonable range?
I'm not sure that bankroll argument stands up, like he's not relying on cashing in the tournament and if 200 makes a big difference to him bigger prizes make a bigger difference. I've no problem with someone nitting it up and folding to the money if its a huge deal to them, but advice here on a poker forum should be for the biggest +$EV move.
Also, if this hand was posted as CO opens to 3100, sb calls, hero ? I doubt there would be as many people advocating folds
ICM measures $EV rather than chip EV so takes account of bubble, prize structure etc. If someone ran this through an ICM calculator it will tell you the equity you need to make getting it in profitable Nick, if we are 60/40 dog to calling range can we not shove atc here, assuming villain opens a reasonable range? I'm not sure that bankroll argument stands up, like he's not relying on cashing in the tournament and if 200 makes a big difference to him bigger prizes make a bigger difference. I've no problem with someone nitting it up and folding to the money if its a huge deal to them, but advice here on a poker forum should be for the biggest +$EV move. Also, if this hand was posted as CO opens to 7500, btn calls, hero ? I doubt there would be as many people advocating folds Posted by grantorino
if this was a $2 fo and the bubble was $6 or watever then its a different story, he can pass this spot and the bubble will prolly burst in next few hands, hes got lock on some good cash now he can go all guns blazing, the last cash spot is huge in comparison to his roll,
if you have a $50,000 roll and you freeroll into the same situation as this and its the bubble or 50k what would you do? and dont say its not the same because its all relative to what you play
Comments
Look we have 20BB and JJ four handed. Theres no guarantee the 8BB stacks will bust soon, unless villain is opening an extremely tight range its a clear shove imo, especially with the call in between.
If you are folding JJ to anopen do you think villain should fold QQ to the shove?
Edit: Im not sure how hoovering up chips will be difficult if you can open and people will think about folding JJ
I think this is more marginal than it first appears. If Da Bean is reshoving/reraising a lot the villain here probably has tightened their opening range if Beaneh is still yet to act. 88+ AQ+ would be my blind stab in the dark having not watched the table or know the player. Makes it tighter and you will probably hate a call but shove is still fine.
great post
yeah for the price you can call, but i dont really wanna stick any more chips in without hitting a jack, when he shoves pre ok he could take it down but it dont guarantee him a cash,
i wouldn't even say just folding the jacks pre was bad considering how passive i would play them and being 3 way
Right, if the BR jump is such a consideration let's do this properly like it's a VLV satellite bubble or something. If you're main objective is now to cash as we are on the bubble, we have 2 or 3 super shorties and we are a mid stack then you are time out folding everything, INCLUDING ACES.
Either go all the way one way or play without BR considerations. If we timeout fold everything (oh for H4H) we are 99% sure to cash correct? Folding everything is the most likely way to ensure a cash.
As I stated before I think this decision with jacks is a lot tighter than it is on face value but that is nothing to do with the BR situation. Regarding flatting with Kings I assume you are making a stop and go play on any non ace board? Or are you really set mining?
his bankroll here is a HUGE factor on how he plays this hand infact it should be the only one.
the point is he shoves and tid he dont guarantee doubling his roll, he shoves and gets called he is prolly 60/40 dog at best vs the range that should call , and if he had KK he would be 60/40 fav i think
but hey its his money and he cares more about winning than doubling his roll then hes done nothing wrong
Nick, if we are 60/40 dog to calling range can we not shove atc here, assuming villain opens a reasonable range?
I'm not sure that bankroll argument stands up, like he's not relying on cashing in the tournament and if 200 makes a big difference to him bigger prizes make a bigger difference. I've no problem with someone nitting it up and folding to the money if its a huge deal to them, but advice here on a poker forum should be for the biggest +$EV move.
Also, if this hand was posted as CO opens to 3100, sb calls, hero ? I doubt there would be as many people advocating folds
if you have a $50,000 roll and you freeroll into the same situation as this and its the bubble or 50k what would you do? and dont say its not the same because its all relative to what you play