PLO 10/20p, big draw on turn facing PSB.

DOHHHHHHH

Is this a fold?

If I were to continue, would I be better just calling then check folding the river if I miss? I have no fold equity, but I could save 25xbb if I just flat? Is there any point in raising the rest of his stack?

I spose all three options are open here?

Looking back, I think fold is probably best, calling 2nd best, and shoving the worst option?

New to PLO so any basic advice appreciated.

Thnx

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
mick777	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£20.50
CALLANIE	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£21.82
	Your hole cards	K 10 Q 7
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£53.82
jigbon09	Call		£0.60	£1.50	£16.66
LJ_Elson72	Call		£0.60	£2.10	£18.60
mick777	Fold
CALLANIE	Fold
Flop
		9 J 7
DOHHHHHHH	Bet		£1.40	£3.50	£52.42
jigbon09	Fold
LJ_Elson72	Raise		£3.80	£7.30	£14.80
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£2.40	£9.70	£50.02
Turn
		2
DOHHHHHHH	Check
LJ_Elson72	Bet		£9.70	£19.40	£5.10
DOHHHHHHH

GREGHOGG

Its a fold for me.

You are probably up against a set or 810, and although im not a maths expert i dont think you have the right price here.

Also your heart draw may not be live.

I agree fold is better than call which is better than shove.

A shove is bad, as you have no FE.

DeucesLive

yep, I agree with a fold- you can't rely on your heart draw, you're almost definitely up against made straight here I reckon, and he could very easily have at least one king or queen which means you have even less live outs. Not getting the right price here when you figure your outs may not even be live. 

If you had the A high flush draw... maybe, but even then it's a little tight. 

CrazyBen23

Yeah i fold here too. How you finding PLO doh/greghogg? or anyone whos new to it... heard you like to raise alot in another topic or smth doh, you find thats a profitable way? I'm interested cos a week or two ago i was playing some mad nutter (or so it seemed) who was constantly raising and lost about 1/2 buy ins, but then won about 8 lol. It was interesting to see, he said hes done it before but at 20plo and apprantly made 1k playing all night, i used to always play tight in plo but i tried this stragery at 4plo and it worked quite well, obvs not raising with total junk but being very aggro

DOHHHHHHH

I'm nowhere near qualified to preech about how to beat the PLO tables, but I've realised alot of players play loose passive pre flopa and very tight passive post flop.

So theyre limping with hands like 5,6,7,8 ds, check/calling their draws, then potting it when they get there, or just folding when they miss.

Similar to lower mid stakes NLHe, they love to call, but don't like to raise.

At the mo I'm just trying to avoid tough spots whilst I get used to the game, I'm starting totally from scratch....

But like NLHe I never limp if I'm first in to the pot. It probably looks like I'm raising lots, just because nobody else is......when really I'm just playing good hands aggressively. 

I will play agro post flop with hands I'm happy to get it in with, or that I will snap fold if I get resistence, I'm not gonna be betting and getting myself stuck very often. Thats the plan anyway.

Been easy money so far

9se7enTr3y

In Response to Re: PLO 10/20p, big draw on turn facing PSB.:

I'm nowhere near qualified to preech about how to beat the PLO tables, but I've realised alot of players play loose passive pre flopa and very tight passive post flop. So theyre limping with hands like 5,6,7,8 ds, check/calling their draws, then potting it when they get there, or just folding when they miss. Similar to lower mid stakes NLHe, they love to call, but don't like to raise. At the mo I'm just trying to avoid tough spots whilst I get used to the game, I'm starting totally from scratch.... But like NLHe I never limp if I'm first in to the pot. It probably looks like I'm raising lots, just because nobody else is......when really I'm just playing good hands aggressively.  I will play agro post flop with hands I'm happy to get it in with, or that I will snap fold if I get resistence, I'm not gonna be betting and getting myself stuck very often. Thats the plan anyway. Been easy money so far
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Whilst i whilst i agree with most of what u have said here, the biggest thing with PLO is position, even more so than in NLHE imo.  I would normally agree with raising whenever you enter a pot but the biggest problem you had with this hand was probably the fact that you entered utg with a weak holding. 

The best thing to do here was simply to fold preflop.  You have 3 suits, no pair, no ace and a weak flush hand and you are playing out of position, so unless you flop nut straight you are unlikely to know where you are. Even if you flop a set you are likely to be outkicked by ak aq etc.

Even aakk 2 suited is hard to play utg at PLO unless your stack size is small enough to be able to reraise all in preflop if you get some preflop action.  Otherwise any board that doesnt flush you or boat you is likely to be dangerous to play as people who are playing 'any 4' are likely to get frisky with top 2 pr etc.

Anyway, whilst i understand that i have no history of PLO on SP at the moment, and people may say i havent got a clue and shouldnt be commenting, this is due to having no BR yet and once i have a little i will be joining in the fun to test my game once again.

Good luck, its an excellent game to play but with the large swings to go with it.

Paddy H  9se7enTr3y

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: PLO 10/20p, big draw on turn facing PSB.:

In Response to Re: PLO 10/20p, big draw on turn facing PSB. : Whilst i whilst i agree with most of what u have said here, the biggest thing with PLO is position, even more so than in NLHE imo.  I would normally agree with raising whenever you enter a pot but the biggest problem you had with this hand was probably the fact that you entered utg with a weak holding.  The best thing to do here was simply to fold preflop.  You have 3 suits, no pair, no ace and a weak flush hand and you are playing out of position, so unless you flop nut straight you are unlikely to know where you are. Even if you flop a set you are likely to be outkicked by ak aq etc. Even aakk 2 suited is hard to play utg at PLO unless your stack size is small enough to be able to reraise all in preflop if you get some preflop action.  Otherwise any board that doesnt flush you or boat you is likely to be dangerous to play as people who are playing 'any 4' are likely to get frisky with top 2 pr etc. Anyway, whilst i understand that i have no history of PLO on SP at the moment, and people may say i havent got a clue and shouldnt be commenting, this is due to having no BR yet and once i have a little i will be joining in the fun to test my game once again. Good luck, its an excellent game to play but with the large swings to go with it. Paddy H  9se7enTr3y
Posted by 9se7enTr3y

V gud point this. 

I'm just using trial and error at the mo.

So this is too weak to open utg then, but from the cut off/button it's a standard open?

I haven't really thought about position much at all so far, just been opening the same hands from all positions. 

9se7enTr3y

In Response to Re: PLO 10/20p, big draw on turn facing PSB.:

In Response to Re: PLO 10/20p, big draw on turn facing PSB. : V gud point this.  I'm just using trial and error at the mo. So this is too weak to open utg then, but from the cut off/button it's a standard open? I haven't really thought about position much at all so far, just been opening the same hands from all positions. 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

tbh mate, a limp in is probably better from button. Cutoff is debateable to play at all depending on the blinds players hisory of pumping it up or just letting flop come for free.  The hand is still weak, i would compare it to raising with 89x j10x in late posn at nlhe.  both hands hugely flop dependent and can easily be behind if either of the blinds play the flop.

Talon

  For me you are asking the wrong question. This is because you turned the flop into an effective Turn decision. You had a massive draw on the flop and rightly bet out but this is when your decision needs to be made. By flatting on the flop you have in all regards given yourself 1 card to hit your draw because you know you will be facing a turn bet.

  On the flop you have  4 8s, 3 Ts,3 Qs and 3 Ks. for a total of 13 outs and this is the point you need to make you decision when you have 2 chances to win and much better odds to play with. By waiting for the turn you have halved your odds and possibly lost quite a few outs as well which means you should be snap folding there.


  So for me you should have either repopped on the flop to get your money in then or folded. Calling and hoping to get lucky is never a good plan especially when you have only 1 more card before you have to make another decision.

9se7enTr3y

In Response to Re: PLO 10/20p, big draw on turn facing PSB.:
  For me you are asking the wrong question. This is because you turned the flop into an effective Turn decision. You had a massive draw on the flop and rightly bet out but this is when your decision needs to be made. By flatting on the flop you have in all regards given yourself 1 card to hit your draw because you know you will be facing a turn bet.   On the flop you have  4 8s, 3 Ts,3 Qs and 3 Ks. for a total of 13 outs and this is the point you need to make you decision when you have 2 chances to win and much better odds to play with. By waiting for the turn you have halved your odds and possibly lost quite a few outs as well which means you should be snap folding there.   So for me you should have either repopped on the flop to get your money in then or folded. Calling and hoping to get lucky is never a good plan especially when you have only 1 more card before you have to make another decision.
Posted by Talon

whilst i understand what Talon is saying i dont agree with it for a couple of reasons: 1.  You are allowing a turn card to give you more information and possibly to give you more outs)  2.  If you repop it and commit yourself you are only getting called by (decent player who reads boards, we will ignore the gamblers for the moment) a better draw or top set,  in which case you are in the poo (worse case he has top set and nut flush back door draw with 2 overcards that i can think of).

poker is about information and allowing yourself as many chances as possible to win the hand.  If the opposition misses his draw or the board turns bad for him then this allows you an extra way of winning the hand by shoving the river.  Even if you dont have it, he may be now worried that you do and fold to 3/4 pot all in bet anyway.  By reshoving flop you are only allowing yourself 2 ways to win the hand instead of the 3 that you have now created by smoothcalling his flop bet.  1.  you now have best hand (on turn) 2.  You make him think u have best hand (on turn)  3.  River showdown gives you best hand.

Any disagreements because this is the best hand i have talked about for a while lol

9se7enTr3y

In Response to Re: PLO 10/20p, big draw on turn facing PSB.:

In Response to Re: PLO 10/20p, big draw on turn facing PSB. : whilst i understand what Talon is saying i dont agree with it for a couple of reasons: 1.  You are allowing a turn card to give you more information and possibly to give you more outs)  2.  If you repop it and commit yourself you are only getting called by (decent player who reads boards, we will ignore the gamblers for the moment) a better draw or top set,  in which case you are in the poo (worse case he has top set and nut flush back door draw with 2 overcards that i can think of). poker is about information and allowing yourself as many chances as possible to win the hand.  If the opposition misses his draw or the board turns bad for him then this allows you an extra way of winning the hand by shoving the river.  Even if you dont have it, he may be now worried that you do and fold to 3/4 pot all in bet anyway.  By reshoving flop you are only allowing yourself 2 ways to win the hand instead of the 3 that you have now created by smoothcalling his flop bet.  1.  you now have best hand (on turn) 2.  You make him think u have best hand (on turn)  3.  River showdown gives you best hand. Any disagreements because this is the best hand i have talked about for a while lol
Posted by 9se7enTr3y

  forgot to add that even if he has 8,10 here he isnt going to like a k or q turn very much

Talon

  There are a couple of problems with flatting the flop.

  Firstly due to the nature of the starting hand it is highly unlikely for a turn card to come along which will provide more outs and it is much more likely to come a card that takes away outs or possibly even kills the hand stone dead.

 Secondly if we assume that we call and hit one of the outs then unless the guy is on the same draw or a complete fool then there is no way of getting the money in against him and getting paid off due to the telegraphing of the hand.

  By repopping the flop you have 2 ways of winning hitting or bullying by calling the flop you also have 2 ways of winning hitting or bluffing.I would take bullying over bluffing everytime because anyone who shows such an interest in the pot is not likely to be bluffed off.

9se7enTr3y

In Response to Re: PLO 10/20p, big draw on turn facing PSB.:

  There are a couple of problems with flatting the flop.   Firstly due to the nature of the starting hand it is highly unlikely for a turn card to come along which will provide more outs and it is much more likely to come a card that takes away outs or possibly even kills the hand stone dead.  Secondly if we assume that we call and hit one of the outs then unless the guy is on the same draw or a complete fool then there is no way of getting the money in against him and getting paid off due to the telegraphing of the hand.   By repopping the flop you have 2 ways of winning hitting or bullying by calling the flop you also have 2 ways of winning hitting or bluffing.I would take bullying over bluffing everytime because anyone who shows such an interest in the pot is not likely to be bluffed off.
Posted by Talon

Ok mate sounds reasonable either way i think.  Look forward to the next hand we analyze Talon.  Good thought sharing, take care dude.