Settling an argument for ducks UTG, Final Table 20ishBB's,

AMYBR

Playing $20 MTT last night MLHE online.

Tournament is 6 max, so final table begins at 6 handed. 440 runners so a decent payday, especially top 2.

3 rocks, 3 loosey goosey idiot luckbox that have been getting their stacks in real bad and sucking out on people consistently. 

Loosey goosey 1 and 2 are both in the blinds.  I find ducks UTG in a NL cycle.  I have about 210k, blinds are 12/24k.  I insta fold.  My house mate has been watching for a while, tells me I'm an idiot.  I always fold there.
Duece hts the flop, he tells me I'm a tool.  I say it doesnt change anything, I'm still happy folding everyday of the week. 

I'm not flatting pre (which is what he says he would do) and I'm not raising to have the loosey goosey calling stations call with any two cards.  I have no advantage going to the flop.

Opinions ?

RAB642

i normally min raise in this spot, if they call and you hit you have a very well hidden set, if you dont hit you can get out pretty cheap, best of all if they are as loose as you say if they hit say a top pair your stacking them.

jugglegeek

In Response to Settling an argument for ducks UTG, Final Table 20ishBB's,:

Playing $20 MTT last night MLHE online. Tournament is 6 max, so final table begins at 6 handed. 440 runners so a decent payday, especially top 2. 3 rocks, 3 loosey goosey idiot luckbox that have been getting their stacks in real bad and sucking out on people consistently.  Loosey goosey 1 and 2 are both in the blinds.  I find ducks UTG in a NL cycle.  I have about 210k, blinds are 12/24k.  I insta fold.  My house mate has been watching for a while, tells me I'm an idiot.  I always fold there. Duece hts the flop, he tells me I'm a tool.  I say it doesnt change anything, I'm still happy folding everyday of the week.  I'm not flatting pre (which is what he says he would do) and I'm not raising to have the loosey goosey calling stations call with any two cards.  I have no advantage going to the flop. Opinions ?
Posted by AMYBR

Could you have considered a min-raise? Either three things would happen. Everyone folds thinking you must be strong to min-raise UTG and you pick up the blinds; you get called by a marginal hand and then play it from there; or someone else shoves in which case you can get out the way and you still have 8 big blinds left to shove with next time.

I had exactly this last night in a live tournament. I got called by the big blind, the flop came with a jack and a 2 so I checked hoping he had hit something. He'd got J6 or something and went all in. I was ready to fold to a re-raise pre-flop.

GREGHOGG

You have 9 big blinds. (although effectivly less because of the antes)

Imo you have two options.

fold, or shove all in. limping is just awful.

I dont understand the "min raise" option because what you gonna do if you get reshipped on? fold your other 7bbs?

I think i would probably just shove the lot. If they want to call with random overcards so be it, im ahead and im going ftw. If some1s got a pair its just ul.

DOHHHHHHH

7 handed?

What was the avg stack? were there any rly short stacks, or any big unz'? 

It's shove or fold, I prefer a fold.

I spose you can still raise/fold but again I prefer just to fold. 

---------------------------

edit, your title says 20xbb yet ur description suggests less than 10. My above analysis was based on a 20xbb stack.

10xbb it's a clear shove.

DrSharp

Defo a shove or fold hand. Your stack is too short to be messing about calling or min raising. Personally, i would fold the ducks. Your racing at best!

GREGHOGG

can we clear up how many bbs you had pls, i did my post based on you having 9bbs as you said " I have about 210k, blinds are 12/24k."

cos if you had 20bbs, i dont mind a min raise! Or a fold is fine! Id never limp tho.

AMYBR

The issue I have always had with this is that if you do min to 48k - which is effectively 1/4 of stack - (but more realistically wastes a lot of your all in strength when you do find a hand you can be confident in) what do you do if someone jams for 110k through 150k, it becomes an instant call.

So your putting yourself in a situation you dont need to be, wasting all the ammunition you have on a hand thats going to be flipping 50/50 at best 82/12 at worst. 

This is only regarding semi shallow stack late in a tourney though, also EP

AMYBR

I'll try to answer all the above Q's by putting the hand in more detail

FT of $20MLHE  6max tournay.

SB uber luckbox fish 420k
BB even bigger uber luckbox fish 170k
Seat 3 me TAG 280k
Seat 4 passive, leaning towards rock 150k
Seat 5 Rock 170k
Seat 6 Passive donk 170k

(Rough chip guides)

I have been by far the strongest player, but luckboxs WILL NOT FOLD.  Constantly coming from behind to get very lucky on river, they were simply playing their luck.  I was able to push around the other 3 a little, but mainly not when uber douches were involved.

Had been crippled 3 times on the bubble by them, to real bad beats but had rebuilt my stack each time.  This likely plays into my though process, as I wasnt about to play dueces and go out after battling them so long.
My table image doesnt even come into it, they just didnt think deeply enough for it to count.  The Limit sections were very dangerous.

So thats the scenario.

If I believe people are paying attention and realise I'm only playing strong I MAY have jammed there, but this definately was not the table to do it.  But overall my playbook is to fold 6's and lower in that scenario.

Play the dueces and you cant play any other hand as strong as you'd like.  I'd rather Jam on the BB in an unraised pot with two random cards then get involved UTG with ducks there.

GREGHOGG

In the title you say you have a) 20bbs ish.

In your OP you say you have  b) 210k which is about 9bbs

You now say you had c) 280k, which is about 12bbs

Will you make your mind up please?!!

So if you had a) I min raise/fold

b) I open shove

c) I fold (and shove the next unopened button c/o)

so you were right to fold if you had 280k imo.

DOHHHHHHH

lol it's all about our stack size......

Can't answer the question till that is clafirifed.

If it is 280, it's arund 12xbb......so it's more like a shove.

Or a fold.

No other options.

AMYBR

I 've tracked it back to relative stack size on opponents.  With the FL and NL cycles I've kind of lost what the blinds were.  I know I had around 20 Bigs and opposing stack sizes in relation to it.  Just had the HH emailed from last night so can sift through.

Simply though, do you want to play ducks in that spot?  If I had 40=bbs I make it 2.5xBB intending to fold to any real resistance, but 20ish BB's your just hamstringing yourself IMO

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Settling an argument for ducks UTG, Final Table 20ishBB's,:

I 've tracked it back to relative stack size on opponents.  With the FL and NL cycles I've kind of lost what the blinds were.  I know I had around 20 Bigs and opposing stack sizes in relation to it.  Just had the HH emailed from last night so can sift through. Simply though, do you want to play ducks in that spot?  If I had 40=bbs I make it 2.5xBB intending to fold to any real resistance, but 20ish BB's your just hamstringing yourself IMO
Posted by AMYBR

when youve got the hand,. copy and paste the action exactly, then you will get proper feedback!

AMYBR

wow agro much?

Easy enough question.  20bigs UTG, with ducks with two luckbox crazies in the blinds one sat 40 bigs other sat around 17bigs.  Fold, jam limp, min ducks.  All the info is there bud, any additional context of players is in the thread.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Settling an argument for ducks UTG, Final Table 20ishBB's,:

wow agro much? Easy enough question.  20bigs UTG, with ducks with two luckbox crazies in the blinds one sat 40 bigs other sat around 17bigs.  Fold, jam limp, min ducks.  All the info is there bud, any additional context of players is in the thread.
Posted by AMYBR

not at all

but i cba to comment on your posts if the information is not clear/ keeps changing. i just sugested you copy and paste the exact hand history to help us all, thats all.

good luck

grantorino

if you are 20BB deep folding is fine imo

if you are 9bb deep I shove

YOUNG_GUN

lol 20bb insta fold, 9 i shove.......

AMYBR

Argument settled

I was right as expected

Fricking awful 2 day session at PH, playing $1/2, second best hand every time or fricking outdrawn by 5 outers at the river.  Just horrible.................................