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Goddammit!
ZedsDeadBa
Member Posts: 176
Accumulating £5.38 at 4NL is a real slog so spnuking it off in one hand is a real bind!
Should I have just called the flop instead of the raise?
Perhaps by the turn he might have cooled off a bit, and been a little more likely pushed off the hand?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancebeckiboo25Small blind £0.02£0.02£2.59BEACHBABYBig blind £0.04£0.06£4.35 Your hole cardsQJ ColinBrownFold RSBCall £0.04£0.10£2.84ZedsDeadBaRaise £0.20£0.30£3.15beckiboo25Fold BEACHBABYFold RSBCall £0.16£0.46£2.68Flop 109Q RSBBet £0.48£0.94£2.20ZedsDeadBaRaise £1.55£2.49£1.60RSBRaise £2.14£4.63£0.06ZedsDeadBaAll-in £1.60£6.23£0.00RSBAll-in £0.06£6.29£0.00ZedsDeadBaUnmatched bet £0.47£5.82£0.47RSBShowK10 ZedsDeadBaShowQJ Turn 4 River J RSBWinStraight to the King£5.38 £5.38
Should I have just called the flop instead of the raise?
Perhaps by the turn he might have cooled off a bit, and been a little more likely pushed off the hand?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancebeckiboo25Small blind £0.02£0.02£2.59BEACHBABYBig blind £0.04£0.06£4.35 Your hole cardsQJ ColinBrownFold RSBCall £0.04£0.10£2.84ZedsDeadBaRaise £0.20£0.30£3.15beckiboo25Fold BEACHBABYFold RSBCall £0.16£0.46£2.68Flop 109Q RSBBet £0.48£0.94£2.20ZedsDeadBaRaise £1.55£2.49£1.60RSBRaise £2.14£4.63£0.06ZedsDeadBaAll-in £1.60£6.23£0.00RSBAll-in £0.06£6.29£0.00ZedsDeadBaUnmatched bet £0.47£5.82£0.47RSBShowK10 ZedsDeadBaShowQJ Turn 4 River J RSBWinStraight to the King£5.38 £5.38
Comments
On the flop, YOU ARE NEVER FOLDING. Get the money in ASAP. Top pair J kicker is a good enough hand against most NL4 hands anyway, and add in a solid flush draw, oesd draw AND oesfd to boot means you're in excellent shape against basically every hand going. If he has a set, you're close to 50%, and that's the worst case scenario. 2 pair, your jack becomes an out too.
Rule of thumb. If you get your money in, and you're ahead when the money goes in, you played the hand optimally. No other way round it. You got your money in as a favourite=surefire way to make money at poker- ul he rivered you, but that's gonna happen time to time.
Surprised he continued in the hand tbh. I just jam on him, hoping he calls with............well anything
I think there is a decent argument for flatting flop here
That would be one opinion bud, put very eloquently also. Your hand is pretty but doesnt contain that much strength in reality. Limp behind for pot control/draw multiple players in or raise to isolate Eithers fine.
Neither approach being nonsense or wrong.
The flop is when you want your money in. You have good equity with top pair and oesfd. Leave it until the turn, and if you miss that you have a much tougher decision. Not only that but if you do hit, you're no longer to get action from hands you may have been beating anyway. Get it in while you're guaranteed to see both cards ftw.
I think raising may be best, mainly because he prob continues with draws, but I also think call is an option, its villain dependent. We have good equity on flop but so has nearly all villain continuing range and we have no fe against better hands.
Let's look at the possibilities, starting with the worst case scenarios-
Villain has AK hearts- 57%
Villain has pair of Qs, Kh kicker- 49% (4% split)
Villain has top 2 pair- 58%
Villain has set- 45%
Villain has KhJ- 33%
Villain has KJ- 39%
Those are the worst cases, and we stack up extremely well here unless villain has the made straight- and we still have pretty decent equity. We know he can't have the made straight and flush draw, which works in our favour.
Now, other possibilities-
Villain has K10- 85%
Villain has 78h- 77%
Villain has AJ- 70%
Random hands like 79- 85-90%
Our opponent is drawing very thin with these quite common random hands- if turn comes a total brick our hand shrinks up a bit, or if the flush comes for us, we risk him shutting down. He's clearly keen to put his money in now, so let him IMO- in the worst case scenario where he has a set or KQ with K of hearts, we're still virtually a 50/50. Everything else we have great equity to stick our chips in, it's impossible he has a better draw than us.
I would think though he is more likely to be leading with made hands than draws, but raising prob still better
given chances of bad/scary turn.Is he really like to show up with bottom pair or KT here?
I think you're underestimating just how bad the standard is here. I wouldn't be totally surprised if he showed up with 63os. There are some solid regs grinding at NL4 to build a roll, some half decent regular players that probably break even, and then a whole army of fish just generating rake for sky. Money spins around for fun down there. It's worth you playing a session to really understand the mentality of it.
I know you're a good player, and I like debating with you because you always think clearly and if you disagree, you have a good reason to back it up. Poker players rarely ever agree on much, and I always like to hear other perspectives on a situation- sometimes it makes me rethink how I'd play it and take it onboard myself, other times I accept it's a difference of approach, and leave it at that. I hope you don't think I'm purposefully arguing with you on every thread for the sake of it!
Given that I say each approach is fine, neither being nonsense or wrong (which was simply a reproduction of your post), I struggle to see what you are still finding to argue with..............
Ok, well that was a lot more illuminating than I had anticipated.
In some ways I wish I had never asked the question. I've barely won a hand and lost four buy-ins since. My worst run since starting in March. Dont get me wrong I'm not suggesting thats your fault ;o) I tried to change my game too much rather than integrate the differing perspectives.
Not only have there been a number of conflicting answers but a number of answers that run totally counter to everything I thought I had learned so far. For instance advocating limping even on the button! QJs is too loose in position!
However on reflection I think overall the thread has been very positive in so far as it's confirmed in my own mind some of the aspects I think of as "correct", or at least fit my personality and result in an increase in bankroll...up to now, at least.
For instance if I have a playable hand, in any position, hitting a flop and then playing an un-raised pot is a total waste of time, so limping for me is LARGELY out. My c-betting, even when I miss completely, takes down the pot so often, must make it a profitable play?
Secondly, I think I'll now increase the times I get it all-in on the flop, so long as I think I'm ahead, rather than wait for the security blanket of the stone cold nuts on the river.
Third, the biggest problem I have struggled with is trying to figure out turn play, I guess the answer to that is to have already decided what I'm doing before even getting there?
So once again, thanks everyone,
Really appreciated,
Regards,
Mark.