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Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in!

DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
edited May 2011 in The Poker Clinic
8NL. I was playing quite tight and had'nt played that many hands when i wake up with the nemesis that is JJ in the small blind. I'm not always this aggro with these but player x looked a decent player and i didnt really want him in the hand to be honest. Player y i thought i could do well against.

Basically, i struggle with JJ and have tried various ways of playing them but after a 3xBB raise and a flat call i was fairly certain i was in front here. JJ doesnt look too good on the flop normally so i thought i'd bang it up, with me being OOP and then got a caller from the original raiser, which was fine but then an all-in from someone who is 92xBB deep and who only flatted the original raiser. I didnt know what type of hand to put him on to be honest, has he slow played a big pocket pair? Does AK do this? Can he do this with air after a 13xBB raise and a call in front of him?

Not sure my jacks are good now with such a confident raise and also a third party still to act!

Opinions on this situation please guys. Should i have flatted pre flop OOP? Is this an easy call/fold? What hands do you put these two on?

I'd love to see the guys on TV have a go at this without seeing villains cards.

Hand History #374547973 (12:46 23/05/2011)

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
DrSharp Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £7.55
MARSHALLG Big blind  £0.08 £0.12 £3.59
  Your hole cards
  • J
  • J
     
yRaise  £0.24 £0.36 £20.83
xCall  £0.24 £0.60 £7.36
Dafs Fold     
DrSharp Raise  £1.00 £1.60 £6.55
MARSHALLG Fold     
yCall  £0.80 £2.40 £20.03
xAll-in  £7.36 £9.76 £0.00
DrSharp ??? 
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Comments

  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2011

    Couple of Qs:
    Player ys range? Can player x flat a big hand cos someone behind likely squeezes?

    3bet if they call with worse, or fold better (lol). Not because you are oop.

    As played I call, I think you see AK, 77-TT far more than QQ+

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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited May 2011
    Your first line "I was playing quite tight and hadnt played many hands" is only meaningful to yourself at this level i think, as not many will really be paying that close attention i'd of thought.

    I always play J's as ducks (22) here. So he's not 4 bet Jamming A10 or worse of 10's or lower, I'd hope.  Kind of player dependant but you kind of have to believe your dominated or flipping.  If the dynamic says your flipping, then it just comes down to do you want to race, which i'd be more inclined to do cash than Tournament.

    I hear ppl over jam at these levels strong, if not for being told this i'd expect 7's through 9's, but I hear its more likely one of the big guns.
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  • murray69murray69 Member Posts: 436
    edited May 2011
    This hand im posting, well im basically saying i folded this based on my opponent, pretty similar and we have the same hand, my opponent had been playing tight not played many hands and not stuck any raises in at any point, so i figured i was behind, if your opponent was tight its a defo fold here if not i probably stick my stack in and hope for the best. :)
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    Skys_Limit Small blind  1250.00 1250.00 52471.25
    tomwrx Big blind  2500.00 3750.00 57512.50
      Your hole cards
    • J
    • J
    		     
    hoyle12 Fold     
    murray69 Raise  7500.00 11250.00 52330.00
    JOE07 Fold     
    Skys_Limit Fold     
    tomwrx Raise  25000.00 36250.00 32512.50
    murray69 Fold     
    tomwrx Show
    • K
    • K
    		   
    tomwrx Win  16250.00  48762.50
    tomwrx Return  20000.00 0.00 68762.50
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited May 2011
    This is tough but for me after he just flats the first raise then suddenly goes crazy once a bigger raise comes in he can very easily have a mid range pair and just wants to gamble, of course he could also have AK but I'd take the risk and call.
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2011
    hand is not similar at all

    you also need a serious read to fold JJ 25BB deep
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited May 2011
    A hand to illustrate my point earlier obz I have QQ but the point is shovers can have anything.
    summoner Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £4.93
    bolly580 Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £2.59
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • Q
    		     
    tillytrot Raise   £0.08 £0.14 £2.85
    bartoniron Fold        
    Dudeskin8 Raise   £0.32 £0.46 £3.46
    nptj1963 All-in   £5.37 £5.83 £0.00
    summoner Fold        
    bolly580 Fold        
    tillytrot All-in   £2.85 £8.68 £0.00
    Dudeskin8 All-in   £3.46 £12.14 £0.00
    nptj1963 Unmatched bet   £1.59 £10.55 £1.59
    tillytrot Show
    • J
    • A
    		     
    Dudeskin8 Show
    • Q
    • Q
    		     
    nptj1963 Show
    • 8
    • 8
    		   
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in!:
    This is tough but for me after he just flats the first raise then suddenly goes crazy once a bigger raise comes in he can very easily have a mid range pair and just wants to gamble, of course he could also have AK but I'd take the risk and call.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    if he has AK this is a snapcall
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  • DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in!:
    Couple of Qs: Player ys range? Can player x flat a big hand cos someone behind likely squeezes? 3bet if they call with worse, or fold better (lol). Not because you are oop. As played I call, I think you see AK, 77-TT far more than QQ+
    Posted by grantorino
    This is from memory mate. Hand was a couple of days ago. Anyway, y's range is pretty standard. Had no problem raising unopened with anything from suited connectors all the way up to Aces. Never seen him do this with anything other than a standard 3xBB raise (+1 per limper). Player x gave me a bit of trouble over a couple of marginal hands we were involved in so i had him down as a decent player. He was topping up his balance quite a bit and was involved in quite a few hands but never anything out of the ordinary like this. Just a decent LAG player in my opinion for the very few hands i had been involved with him. I dont think he could of expected a squeeze play at all. 
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  • DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in!:
    This is tough but for me after he just flats the first raise then suddenly goes crazy once a bigger raise comes in he can very easily have a mid range pair and just wants to gamble, of course he could also have AK but I'd take the risk and call.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    I thought i could still be ahead of the guy that shoves due to his flat call first. However, player y insta calls the initial reraise from me which set alarm bells ringing as he is still to act. JJ vs one oppo would be ok, no probs with the call, but with one more to act just made me a bit unsure on what to do. As the title says, did my nut in! lol.
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  • DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in!:
    Your first line "I was playing quite tight and hadnt played many hands" is only meaningful to yourself at this level i think, as not many will really be paying that close attention i'd of thought. I always play J's as ducks (22) here. So he's not 4 bet Jamming A10 or worse of 10's or lower, I'd hope.  Kind of player dependant but you kind of have to believe your dominated or flipping.  If the dynamic says your flipping, then it just comes down to do you want to race, which i'd be more inclined to do cash than Tournament. I hear ppl over jam at these levels strong, if not for being told this i'd expect 7's through 9's, but I hear its more likely one of the big guns.
    Posted by AMYBR
    AMYBR, firstly, you'd be suprised by the standard of some players even at this level. Quite a few know what they are doing. I do agree with playing these rather quieter tho i wouldnt play them like deuces but maybe more like 88's. Just mixing it up a bit, really thought that would be the end of the hand.
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in!:
    In Response to Re: Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in! : AMYBR, firstly, you'd be suprised by the standard of some players even at this level. Quite a few know what they are doing. I do agree with playing these rather quieter tho i wouldnt play them like deuces but maybe more like 88's. Just mixing it up a bit, really thought that would be the end of the hand.
    Posted by DrSharp
    Exactly, I dont doubt there are some fantastic players at this level, whose online cash game is massively better than my own.  I'm talking of the majority bud.

    The way the action plays it makes no difference if it is 8's or 2's, unless you believe he 4 bet jams 7's or less or A7 or less.  Which as I said, I'd hope, is unlikely.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited May 2011
    JJ is just a vulnerable hand simple, just like mid pr's
    The spots you find yourself in are either v overpair or overcards.


    JJ plays a lot better late in MTT's


    No likes JJ but I love em tbh, you crush all mid pr's  and stand up well v AJ & lower
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in!:
    In Response to Re: Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in! : if he has AK this is a snapcall
    Posted by grantorino
     
    You say if you know he has AK its a snap but surely having a big edge at this level (which isn't hard) means you don't need to willingly take flips for stacks?
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in!:
    In Response to Re: Yet another tricky JJ hand. Been doing my nut in! :   You say if you know he has AK its a snap but surely having a big edge at this level (which isn't hard) means you don't need to willingly take flips for stacks?
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    1. we are slightly ahead of AK
    2. why would we not take any slight edge we can get?
    3. Most importantly its a snap because it looks like he calls around 6.35 to win around  9.70, which is a pretty big edge on a flip (apologies if I misread odds, but he certainly has to pay less than he wins) 
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  • GlenelgGlenelg Member Posts: 6,600
    edited May 2011

    Hand was a couple of days ago. Anyway, y's range is pretty standard. Had no problem raising unopened with anything from suited connectors all the way up to Aces. Never seen him do this with anything other than a standard 3xBB raise (+1 per limper). Player x gave me a bit of trouble over a couple of marginal hands we were involved in so i had him down as a decent player. He was topping up his balance quite a bit and was involved in quite a few hands but never anything out of the ordinary like this. Just a decent LAG player in my opinion for the very few hands i had been involved with him. I dont think he could of expected a squeeze play at all. 
    Posted by DrSharp

    This, to me, is a key phrase!
    I'm fairly new and NOT a cash player (YET)  BUT i'm kinda thinking this person is getting desperate? More experienced players can give you the strategy/Odds etc.. (Prob 60/40% against AKs?)

    I'm gettin it in!
    Answers to Q's
    1. I'd flat pre.
    2. Def call!
    Hands
    Y = Smallish pair 7/8's
    X = AKs/QQ's

    Pad
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