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KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4

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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited May 2011
    The money we use raising the flop, just to fold when he shoves, could be used to check call the turn, and see if he has a third shell on the river.

    This also gives us 2 more cards to improve.

    He could have air, fire flop and turn and check back river.

    He could bet flop and turn and the board get messy enough for him to check behind a stronger hand than we have on the river.

    I would probably c/c x 3 at 4nl......if I had top pair with this hand readless, or make a "gut read" on the river if it just feels like he's got it.


    He will slow down alot though.
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : Why would we call his supposed flop bet ? Have we gone into check/call down to the river ? That's gotta be bad. Check raise feels good here if he bets 3/4 pot. Your saying call flop and see he does on the turn. I am not a fan of that TBH, think we just end up giving our money away. If he is beating us a raise here means we get away for cheap surely, other than that we are potentially calling down three streets and we are loosing more money while he laughs at us over his glasses :)( If he is weak and betting say a weak TP then we get him off or we are beating him either way we are good. If he is super weak he will fold simple, he could be betting out on underpair If he calls our raise then we look at the fold button very closely )  If he shoves on us then we have a very difficult spot ) Sod it just fold pre and save us this horrible spot :D
    Posted by rancid
    Why is c/c down bad?

    Just because we call flop doesnt mean we have to call 3 streets, although there is an argument for doing that

    As doh said we can c/c 2 streets for the price of c/r flop, and sometimes he slows down

    Why do you want to get him off a weak top pair or to make him fold an underpair? You are betting to make him fold worse and only call with better. This is bad. It is also why raising to find out where you are is always bad, if its the sole reason for betting
     
    If you raise tpgk in a 3bet pot 100BB deep it has to be with intention of getting it in. Even if that is your intention calling may still be better than raising depending on board, villain tendencies etc

    I'm starting to lean towards folding pre also tbh
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:
    You are betting to make him fold worse and only call with better. This is bad. It is also why raising to find out where you are is always bad, if its the sole reason for betting   
    Posted by grantorino
    I agree it's all bad, but my point being this is a bad spot and it feels whatever way you want to play it does not seem to reap any benefits ? Unless your against a known aggro player who will bet TPWK or underpair and or someone who will slow down on the turn or river.

    That's why fold pre seems very apt doesn't it because you OOP with a very possible vulnerable hand

    blind on blind I may even 4 bet pre lol and say hey what you got in the BB
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited May 2011
    Well I ended up folding as figured it might get tricky post flop and unless I hit 2 pair trips I wouldn't really know where I was.
    Dudeskin8 Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £4.06
    jiminy5314 Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £6.05
      Your hole cards
    • Q
    • K
    		     
    honestpaul Call   £0.04 £0.10 £2.10
    Foo_Folder Call   £0.04 £0.14 £2.95
    tez104 Fold        
    tosca21 Fold        
    Dudeskin8 Raise   £0.24 £0.38 £3.82
    jiminy5314 Raise   £0.44 £0.82 £5.61
    honestpaul Fold        
    Foo_Folder Fold        
    Dudeskin8 Fold        
    jiminy5314 Muck        
    jiminy5314 Win   £0.60   £6.21
    jiminy5314 Return   £0.22 £0.00 £6.43
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  • jakallyjakally Member Posts: 421
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : Never call it's either a raise or a fold dependant on stack size which you should have known pre so therefore in this case you can do either i guess even though it becomes a bit spewy over time if you keep doing this
    Posted by rancid

    Say his 3bet PF is AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, JJ and some random air.
    Flop comes Q96r, he bets 80% pot and you raise....what happens?

    He calls or raises AA, KK, QQ, AQ, and folds all his air..... marvellous.
    You are hoping he gets stubborn with AK or JJ, which may happen, but more often than not he will fold these as well.

    Much better to let him stay in the pot with his air. He will already have invested a chunk, so is more likely than not to have another stab.


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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : Say his 3bet PF is AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, JJ and some random air. Flop comes Q96r, he bets 80% pot and you raise....what happens? He calls or raises AA, KK, QQ, AQ, and folds all his air..... marvellous. You are hoping he gets stubborn with AK or JJ, which may happen, but more often than not he will fold these as well. Much better to let him stay in the pot with his air. He will already have invested a chunk, so is more likely than not to have another stab.
    Posted by jakally
    I can't argue with that yeah we want me in the pot if we got him beat yeah of course.
    And yeah we only getting called or raised by either a hand thats beating us or a call to float.
    I guess if we call flop and he checks back the turn then we know we are good.
    What do we do if bets 3/4 pot on the turn then fold i guess :s It's a bit tricky on turn.
    Can he fire 3 bullets ? So we call the turn and he fires again :s
    Feels like we putting ourselves in a spot where we have no easy decision, I would rarther be in spots where I have easy decisions. Hence why i said raise the flop bet :s
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  • jakallyjakally Member Posts: 421
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : I can't argue with that yeah we want me in the pot if we got him beat yeah of course. And yeah we only getting called or raised by either a hand thats beating us or a call to float. I guess if we call flop and he checks back the turn then we know we are good. What do we do if bets 3/4 pot on the turn then fold i guess :s It's a bit tricky on turn. Can he fire 3 bullets ? So we call the turn and he fires again :s Feels like we putting ourselves in a spot where we have no easy decision, I would rarther be in spots where I have easy decisions. Hence why i said raise the flop bet :s
    Posted by rancid

    Sometimes, making decisions easy means winning small pots and losing big ones......

    Whether we call multiple streets depends on the opponent.... it's where notes come in handy.
    I'm happy to call 3 streets if I think it's profitable.... but you need an opponent who 3 bets light PF, and doesn't give up post flop when he misses.

    Better to fold PF than to call flop fold turn every time we hit.





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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:
    I've only recently understood why calling rather than "raising for information" or "raising to find out where I am" is better..... I'm amazed I didn't lose money without understanding this, nevermind managed to win money. If I was qualified to, I would write a post about why raising for information isn't the best option most of the time. But I'm not, because I've only just got used to the concept myself. lol. Maybe someone better than me could make it clear, or link to an article online somewhere that explains it, coz so many people mis-understand it (including me for a long longgggggg time)
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    +1

    I think if your strong post flop its  not such a huge issue.  But re educating myself on this has changed a fundamental aspect of my game, for the better.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:
    In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : +1 I think if your strong post flop its  not such a huge issue.  But re educating myself on this has changed a fundamental aspect of my game, for the better.
    Posted by AMYBR
    Indeed you have to play post flop very well to start check/calling OOP or even in position
    On the whole the raising/betting for info or probe bet is just bad :s
    A while ago it was very much part of my game but soon realised you should only be betting/raising for two reasons.

    Get em off a better hand or for value
    This does take a while to sink.
     But I do still bet/raise to nothing, it does have a place in my game somewhere in certain spots.

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