Why does panic set-in & When should it?

Glenelg

Wasn't gonna post this hand as am embarrassed!  But it's bugging me and as I'm V. eager to learn I suppose I gotta take the criticism's & advice!
Anyhoo, it was a BH 250 runners.  I'm sitting 21/49 and this happens! 

I really enjoy MTT's and seem to do really well at getting down to where I was in this hand. I'm tend to be looking at the lobby and see myself creeping down the list.  Blinds are getting bigger, I get desperate, panic seems to set in and whoooshhh!

Just a couple of Q's really..
1. Should I ignore the lobby - prob not?
2. When should I start to worry? Looking back I'd 25/30BB's !
3. Any other advice would be welcome.
4. YES, I know how bad I played it so I suppose for that reason I "might"  be making progress!
5. I did win a couple of £'s in bounty. lol.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Glenelg	Big blind		300.00	300.00	9055.00
	Your hole cards	8 10
pasty481	Fold
flush375	Fold
Bovis1980	Fold
TONYPEPSI	Raise		600.00	900.00	13882.50
Glenelg	Call		300.00	1200.00	8755.00
Flop
		10 6 J
Glenelg	Bet		300.00	1500.00	8455.00
TONYPEPSI	Raise		2100.00	3600.00	11782.50
Glenelg	All-in		8455.00	12055.00	0.00
TONYPEPSI	Call		6655.00	18710.00	5127.50
Glenelg	Show	8 10
TONYPEPSI	Show	6 6
Turn
		K
River
		8
TONYPEPSI	Win	Three 6s	18710.00		23837.50

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LOL_RAISE

30bbs is massive in a no ante tournament

grantorino

No need to panic with that stack. Keep an eye on lobby for bubble and flat parts of payout structure and adjust accordingly

As to hand either fold or 3b/f pre. Calling oop with a hand like this is spew 25-30BB deep unless you own this guy postflop and even then I dont think I like it

Why are you leading flop I would usually c/c here, and once you do bet snapfold to the raise

DeucesLive

First of all, your position in a tourney is ABSOLUTELY immaterial. There's literally no point in checking it from a technical perspective- it's nice to maybe check sometimes to see how you're doing, but it really should have zero bearing on how you play.  

The only statistic tournament-wise which IS worth checking, is the average chipcount- it's worth comparing your stack to the average to find out how you're doing, and that gives an accurate reflection. But if you're a ways below average, you still shouldn't let it affect you.

The only thing you want to look out for is your bbs (you'll hear some people call it M, which is the same concept but more accurate- I personally think unless antes are involved, there's no need to use M. If you're not familiar with it, it's the cost of 1 orbit round the table- so the SB+BB+1 ante per player seated). The BB ratio is far simpler and just as effective on sky.

As a general rule, if you go below 10bbs, that's when you're in shove/fold mode, and looking for the first good spot to get your chips over the line. No need to shove the first hand you see under 10bbs, but don't let yourself go much below 6/7 IMO. 10-20 is the problem area where open shoving can be a tad wild and risking too much for too little, but any single raise commits you- this is the toughest area to play. 25-30bbs is absolutely coasting, and you can be patient still and pick your spots. Don't sit quietly and let your stack dwindle, but don't go crazy.

Obviously you didn't play this hand great just fold it pre. If people are attacking your bb, leave them to it unless they do it every orbit- then just play back at them wider (but raise it pre rather than flat). 

Keep enjoying the poker! 

DOHHHHHHH

Probably abit of inexperience Pad........

even when you go deep in a tourny, the basics remain the same....

Hand selection and position.

Here you have a bad hand, and you are out of position.

Just stick to the basics and raise good hands, and you'll be alright.

Glenelg

In Response to Lol, GT & Deuces,

Thanks guys appreciated, constructive as always!

Glenelg

In Response to Re: Why does panic set-in & When should it?:

Probably abit of inexperience Pad........ even when you go deep in a tourny, the basics remain the same.... Hand selection and position. Here you have a bad hand, and you are out of position. Just stick to the basics and raise good hands, and you'll be alright.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

I kinda realised this after reviewing how bad I played it but good to hear.
 
VERY well done on TSP last night!! Also, you pull outta the survivor final tonight?

Ta

DrSharp

Cant really add much to deuces post, Pad.

Obv well played to get this deep and you do have to open up more and be more aggro as the tournament progresses. This is a bad hand to flat call out of position. If you fancy it, re raise him pre flop if he has been active off the button otherwise let it go.

Glenelg

In Response to Re: Why does panic set-in & When should it?:

Cant really add much to deuces post, Pad. Obv well played to get this deep and you do have to open up more and be more aggro as the tournament progresses. This is a bad hand to flat call out of position. If you fancy it, re raise him pre flop if he has been active off the button otherwise let it go.
Posted by DrSharp

Having watched a couple of "masters" at work over the last couple of days I've started to realise I'm WAYY too passive in the later stages and sit hoping a monster will fall into my lap! This is obvs not going to happen and I have to make the most of what I'm given. 
I do still forget  to fully appreciate position sometimes, but I'm getting there.

Ta Dr.

BigBluster

No-one will agree with me, but I've won scores of tournaments on this site so here we go against the grain again....

Seeing a flop from the BB with 8T against a min-raise is not a bad play here. I'd have done it. The cash game players will tell you to fold or re-raise, but in a MTT this deep your call is absolutely fine. A fold was OK too.

The 300 bet on the flop was too weak - bet 800 into the 1,200 pot. His 2.1K raise answers the question posed by your 800 bet and it's an easy fold. You've still got 26 BB and can fight on comfortably.

But by getting 300 on the flop you're asking to be bluffed off it, even a hand like Q9 or 89 (well within button range) would put in that 2.1K bet. So by betting 300 you had no idea whether the villain had a hand or was taking you off it. The 800 bet would have given this information. The 300 bet did nothing apart from get you in trouble.

Your play:
1. Pre-flop - absolutely fine.
2, Flop - bet was way too small
3. Shoving to the raise - horror movie stuff!


By the way, all this talk about 10 big blinds is also nonsense. Dan Harrington quoted it in a book years ago and anyone who disagrees gets shouted down on poker forums. If any bet you're going to make puts 50% of your stack in jeopardy, then either don't make it or put the rest in. Shoving crazily when down to 10 bigs is kamikaze. Keep your cool, keep your patience, and watch others kill themselves off by moving too soon.

DOHHHHHHH

Sent u a PM Pad.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Why does panic set-in & When should it?:

No-one will agree with me, but I've won scores of tournaments on this site so here we go against the grain again.... Seeing a flop from the BB with 8T against a min-raise is not a bad play here. I'd have done it. The cash game players will tell you to fold or re-raise, but in a MTT this deep your call is absolutely fine. A fold was OK too. The 300 bet on the flop was too weak - bet 800 into the 1,200 pot. His 2.1K raise answers the question posed by your 800 bet and it's an easy fold. You've still got 26 BB and can fight on comfortably. But by getting 300 on the flop you're asking to be bluffed off it, even a hand like Q9 or 89 (well within button range) would put in that 2.1K bet. So by betting 300 you had no idea whether the villain had a hand or was taking you off it. The 800 bet would have given this information. The 300 bet did nothing apart from get you in trouble. Your play: 1. Pre-flop - absolutely fine. 2, Flop - bet was way too small 3. Shoving to the raise - horror movie stuff! By the way, all this talk about 10 big blinds is also nonsense. Dan Harrington quoted it in a book years ago and anyone who disagrees gets shouted down on poker forums. If any bet you're going to make puts 50% of your stack in jeopardy, then either don't make it or put the rest in. Shoving crazily when down to 10 bigs is kamikaze. Keep your cool, keep your patience, and watch others kill themselves off by moving too soon.
Posted by BigBluster

To flat pre we need to play well postflop and we also need reads imo. I think fold />3b/f>>>>>>>call for most players, especially a relative newbie who is just learning (no offence glenelg)

As for leading flop, I rarely lead into pfr, I can kind of see reasons to do it here, but whats the plan when villain flats

The 10BB idea was around long before harringtons book, I dont see much reasons to limp or raise smaller with <10BB. Its pretty difficult raise/fold, it also allows villains play better against us imo

DrSharp

In Response to Re: Why does panic set-in & When should it?:

In Response to Re: Why does panic set-in & When should it? : Having watched a couple of "masters" at work over the last couple of days I've started to realise I'm WAYY too passive in the later stages and sit hoping a monster will fall into my lap! This is obvs not going to happen and I have to make the most of what I'm given.  I do still forget  to fully appreciate position sometimes, but I'm getting there. Ta Dr.
Posted by Glenelg

Hi Pad again. I know you are a bit inexperieced as am i, (6 months) but if you do one thing today make sure you fully understand this position lark. It took me a while but it literally turned me from a losing player in to a slightly profitable one. Never seen you play but and i dont like to come across as some sort of know it all (as i dont have a clue really) but position is soooo important late on in an MTT. Also, i actually dont mind the play that much to be honest but when you get re raised that amount, its time to let go and start building your chips again.

Its good that DOHHHHHH seems to be helping you out too. He will defo improve your game massively, he's helped me without him even knowing it. Good luck mate.

DeucesLive

In Response to Re: Why does panic set-in & When should it?:

By the way, all this talk about 10 big blinds is also nonsense. Dan Harrington quoted it in a book years ago and anyone who disagrees gets shouted down on poker forums. If any bet you're going to make puts 50% of your stack in jeopardy, then either don't make it or put the rest in. Shoving crazily when down to 10 bigs is kamikaze. Keep your cool, keep your patience, and watch others kill themselves off by moving too soon.
Posted by BigBluster

what? no one says (or shouldn't) that when you hit 10 bigs you should just jam allin first chance you get, and if you read what I said again, you'll notice I specifically said NOT to do that.

10BB is the stage where you SHOVE or FOLD. You don't do anything in between. Limping is always horrible, minraising with the intention to call a shove is pointless unless you have a trapping hand, and anything more than minraising is just as bad- you HAVE to call off your stack if you bet. The 10bb mark just means you have zero options other than shove or fold.

Once you hit around 6-7bbs, then you need to get your chips in ASAP because you're losing fold equity. It's a simple enough concept, if you wait till you're on like 3/4 bbs, then you're guaranteed a call with any two, and even if you win and double, your stack is in the danger area still! You just risked probably a 30/40% chance at least of going out in order to have to make the same move again within 10 minutes!

I think you actually agree with this and have misinterpreted the 10bb rule. I agree with your 50% of chips in, stick the rest in, but I think it applies smaller than that- if you're putting 30% or more of your stack in, you have to go all the way with it. So either stick the lot in straight up, fold it, or put that 30% in knowing that you can't fold to any shove, or any flop.

Glenelg

In Response to everyone,
Gonna have to print this thread off now and study it, bugg a! lol! Some nuggets here!
REALLY appreciate everyone replying to it. To think I wasn't gonna post it as I was too embarrassed!

Once again the community has come up trumps.
Ta
Pad

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Why does panic set-in & When should it?:

No-one will agree with me, but I've won scores of tournaments on this site so here we go against the grain again.... Seeing a flop from the BB with 8T against a min-raise is not a bad play here. I'd have done it. The cash game players will tell you to fold or re-raise, but in a MTT this deep your call is absolutely fine. A fold was OK too. The 300 bet on the flop was too weak - bet 800 into the 1,200 pot. His 2.1K raise answers the question posed by your 800 bet and it's an easy fold. You've still got 26 BB and can fight on comfortably. But by getting 300 on the flop you're asking to be bluffed off it, even a hand like Q9 or 89 (well within button range) would put in that 2.1K bet. So by betting 300 you had no idea whether the villain had a hand or was taking you off it. The 800 bet would have given this information. The 300 bet did nothing apart from get you in trouble. Your play: 1. Pre-flop - absolutely fine. 2, Flop - bet was way too small 3. Shoving to the raise - horror movie stuff! By the way, all this talk about 10 big blinds is also nonsense. Dan Harrington quoted it in a book years ago and anyone who disagrees gets shouted down on poker forums. If any bet you're going to make puts 50% of your stack in jeopardy, then either don't make it or put the rest in. Shoving crazily when down to 10 bigs is kamikaze. Keep your cool, keep your patience, and watch others kill themselves off by moving too soon.
Posted by BigBluster

+1.

30Bigs deep this is as cheap as you'll likely see a flop this late.  Happy to call, just as happy to C/F most flops 4 seconds later.

Am happy for the opportunity to see a flop so cheap with money invested.  If it was a totally unco ordinated hand I'd likely not bother, but you dont need to take too many of these pots down for it to be a breakeven/profitable call. 

Not a big fan of the small lead (understatement!) as if he plays back at you your really not going to know where you are still.  Your brain is as likely to say "He's just pressuring the fold" with two overs/air.  Which may be what happened here?  If you do lead and make it a strong lead, if he comes back at you your getting a much clearer picture.

One of my favourite bits of advice late in MTT's has always been "Sit at the table and act board".  You dont want your emotions jumping over the place.  Play your hands, play ypour image and position.  Doesnt have to be fancy.  I often wash up or tidy downstairs with the volune turned up to max, returning when I'm to act.

BIP

Glenelg

In Response to Re: Why does panic set-in & When should it?:

No-one will agree with me, but I've won scores of tournaments on this site so here we go against the grain again.... Seeing a flop from the BB with 8T against a min-raise is not a bad play here. I'd have done it. The cash game players will tell you to fold or re-raise, but in a MTT this deep your call is absolutely fine. A fold was OK too. The 300 bet on the flop was too weak - bet 800 into the 1,200 pot. His 2.1K raise answers the question posed by your 800 bet and it's an easy fold. You've still got 26 BB and can fight on comfortably. But by getting 300 on the flop you're asking to be bluffed off it, even a hand like Q9 or 89 (well within button range) would put in that 2.1K bet. So by betting 300 you had no idea whether the villain had a hand or was taking you off it. The 800 bet would have given this information. The 300 bet did nothing apart from get you in trouble. Your play: 1. Pre-flop - absolutely fine. 2, Flop - bet was way too small 3. Shoving to the raise - horror movie stuff! By the way, all this talk about 10 big blinds is also nonsense. Dan Harrington quoted it in a book years ago and anyone who disagrees gets shouted down on poker forums. If any bet you're going to make puts 50% of your stack in jeopardy, then either don't make it or put the rest in. Shoving crazily when down to 10 bigs is kamikaze. Keep your cool, keep your patience, and watch others kill themselves off by moving too soon.
Posted by BigBluster

Thanks BB!  I see that now. 

Pad