This hand has been bugging me all day

silentbob

This is a hand from last night. I thought I did the right thing at the time but it's been bugging me all day so I thought I'd get some opinion on it. I won't reveal what I did as I don't want skewed opinions. What I want to know here is long term what's the best way forward on the flop.

Player 1 in the SB hasn't been at the table long. I don't recall playing him previously but I've seen him around the forum.

Player 2 has posted UTG & I've no notes on him.

I decide to tag along OTB looking for a good flop. This is my first problem though. I don't often limp into pots, particularly at this level but figured that with position I had a hand that if I flopped well enough I could make some moniez. What's the opinion on taking a flop here? Should this always be a 3 bet in position or is limping along just too fishy? My thought's at the time was that I'm not gonna like a lot of flops even if I hit my ace but it's a hand with some potential. 

On the flop is where I have my main problem with the hand. Short of having 3 clubs land I've pretty much hit the flop how I wanted. However, with the bet & raise I "know" that I'm behind here. I think it's reasonable to assume that at least one of them holds a king & as long as I'm not up against 2p or a set then my ace is possibly live too. At this stage I figure I've only really got two choices.

1 - FOLD - Do I really want to do this though when I've hit the flop I wanted, even though I "know" I'm behind.

2 - RAISE - If I do this then I do so with the intention of getting it all in on the flop if possible as I've still got two cards to come. I also thought that if I raised here then I've got more chance of player 1 hanging around & if I make it committing enough I'm sure I could stack him if I hit. If I flat here & hit on the turn then I think there's less chance of player 1 staying in.

I didn't really like the idea of just flatting here cos if I miss my draw on the turn then I'm likely to find myself in a real difficult spot.

So long term, what's the best move here.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
PLAYER 1	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.01
------	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£5.88
PLAYER 2	Big blind		£0.04	£0.10	£1.14
	Your hole cards	4 A
PLAYER 2	Raise		£0.04	£0.14	£1.10
------	Fold
------	Fold
silentbob	Call		£0.08	£0.22	£8.71
PLAYER 1	Call		£0.06	£0.28	£3.95
------	Fold
Flop
		9 K 7
PLAYER 1	Bet		£0.28	£0.56	£3.67
PLAYER 2	Raise		£0.56	£1.12	£0.54
silentbob	???

grantorino

pre is prob ok if  blinds likely to call though. If utg was fully stacked its a clear call

As played I 3bet the flop and get it in. SB should fold lots of hands and we can get it in with utg with a nice chunk of dead money in pot. If SB comes along we should still have decent equity

Dudeskin8

Just fold pre mate, I've already ticked the check/fold box here.

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: This hand has been bugging me all day:

Just fold pre mate, I've already ticked the check/fold box here.
Posted by Dudeskin8

So ure foldin A 4 sooted to a min raise?

Silentbob you have what must be the perfect flop that you called for yes?

So as played its a ship the lot in jobby

gl m8 xx

DOHHHHHHH

I don't think the pre flop play should determine what we do post flop? Maybe I'm wrong.

I can get it all in here, or fold, I dnt rly mind. 

I'd probably shove if I was well rolled.

Prob shove even if I wasn't.....

So yeh, shove!

martin111

ar u working for sky dooooooohhhhhhhhhhh???answer me pl

AMYBR

Only read OP, sorry if repeating.

Cash game limp pre is fine, no need to get to fancy.

Player 1 is your only concern here.  But the action is set nicely for you.  He opens, gets raised by shorty, great spot for you to make it £2.20, letting him decide to fold or jam.  If he flats your matching his bet or putting him in on turn on any card.

Hand plays itself IMO, just get it in.  Good leverage over player 1, player 2's stack is immaterial, whether you make your hand or not.

silentbob

Thanks for all the feedback peeps

Regardless of the level, does it/should it make any difference if you're pretty sure you're behind?

Crunchybob

This is an ideal flop for your ace 4 suited surely, if u flat call and miss the clubs, then his going to go all in anyway on the turn.

he has another 54p behind so id just go all in the flop and race to hit ur clubs or not.

Whether this is the correct play or not long term i dnt know...its not a hand i would normally play as its so flop dependant, even if u hit an ace ur worried cos of the small kicker.

cmcc

Bar having to overcards with your flush draw this flop is nearly as good as it gets for you,opponents stack not too big either so put em all in,they either fold or call.With your outs your not much of an underdog.

Codex

for me this is a fold and its a fold pre to

the reason is, player 2 only has £1.10 behind after his raise, so thats the maximum you can win from him

so, even if you hit the flush, you don't win enough to offset the times you miss your flush. also, with his re-raise on the flop, you have zero fold equity


it's a bit like set-mining, if the guy doesn't have a decent stack, even if u hit u can't win enough to offset the times u miss

loonytoons

The flop was as good as you could have expected without flopping the nut flush, with A4 suited what were you hoping for on the flop to give you that win, 44A, or A4*, that would be the only other hands that would be good for you, a single ace on the flop would have been the worst card for you with that kicker, so for me its either a 4x pre flop raise, or a fold, post flop its fold with those bets, someones probably got 2 pair or a set, and if one has a flush draw, you in deep doo doo with less clubs to hit, so my advice would be fold, or as dirty harry would say, 'do you feel lucky' but you aint getting the pot odds to call.

silentbob

It seems there's no real clear cut answer with this.

With regards to folding pre, I can understand that in early/mid position (& it's something I'd do automatically tbf) but particularly OTB I just thought it was worth a look. Unfortunately you don't get big starting hands enough to rely on just getting money from them so over the last couple of weeks I've come to the conclusion that in the right situation it's worth playing marginal hands as long as you don't get carried away on unfavourable flops.

I also take on board about player 2 playing short so I'm only ever gonna win a maximum of £1.18 from him, but given he'd only min raised I thought there was a reasonable chance of player 1 coming along for the ride with a full stack.

As it was I decided to go with it as it was pretty much the sort of flop I was looking for. Player 1 decided to stack off & I binked to pick up a decent pot. By the responses I think it's one of those situations that you either go with or don't so I'm still not entirely sure if it's the right thing in the long run but we live & learn & all that.

Thanks again for the opinions peeps

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: This hand has been bugging me all day:

It seems there's no real clear cut answer with this. With regards to folding pre, I can understand that in early/mid position (& it's something I'd do automatically tbf) but particularly OTB I just thought it was worth a look. Unfortunately you don't get big starting hands enough to rely on just getting money from them so over the last couple of weeks I've come to the conclusion that in the right situation it's worth playing marginal hands as long as you don't get carried away on unfavourable flops. I also take on board about player 2 playing short so I'm only ever gonna win a maximum of £1.18 from him, but given he'd only min raised I thought there was a reasonable chance of player 1 coming along for the ride with a full stack. As it was I decided to go with it as it was pretty much the sort of flop I was looking for. Player 1 decided to stack off & I binked to pick up a decent pot. By the responses I think it's one of those situations that you either go with or don't so I'm still not entirely sure if it's the right thing in the long run but we live & learn & all that. Thanks again for the opinions peeps
Posted by silentbob

With all due respect this is rubbish mate, I've been plugging away at this level with my opening range being KJ+/A10+/10's+/limp all other pairs and have not ever felt the need to play any further outside this.

Also most players aren't folding TP here so for me you know you're getting called and hence are gambling which you just don't need to do at this level lol in fact it's basically tilt for me shoving here.

EDIT : What did he have btw ?

silentbob

In Response to Re: This hand has been bugging me all day:

In Response to Re: This hand has been bugging me all day : With all due respect this is rubbish mate, I've been plugging away at this level with my opening range being KJ+/A10+/10's+/limp all other pairs and have not ever felt the need to play any further outside this. Also most players aren't folding TP here so for me you know you're getting called and hence are gambling which you just don't need to do at this level lol in fact it's basically tilt for me shoving here. EDIT : What did he have btw ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

So you're basically saying that there's never a time or a place to play anything other than a very small range of hands then? With all due respect not everyone that plays these levels are completely dumb & anyone paying an inkling of attention will know to steer clear when you get involved. 

I'm not knocking it, obviously it works for you but I just think that's not necessarily the right approach in the long run if you're gonna look to move up the levels. 

DOHHHHHHH

I think it depends on volume.......

-------------------------------------

If you're playing fun, and happy to breakeven, u can play pretty much whatever u want whenever u want.

--------------------------------------

Assuming you're looking to build a BR and move up the lower levels........

If you 2 or 3 table you can open up and play more hands. 

If you play 7+ tables, you can play Dude's v nitty strategy and basically print money by playing like a robot.(this is the approach I would reccommend)

Playing more hands will allow you to make more money per table, but playing vvv nitty across lots of tables will make you less money per table, but more money per hour/session on the whole.

If I'm 1 or 2 tabling and I have a suited ace on the button facing a min raise, I'd never fold in a million years. If I'm playing 8+ tables, I'd probably snap fold it.

------------------------------

2 different strategies, both will work well assuming you can play them well.

grantorino

you can definitely play wider than dudeskins ranges given what guys seem to show up with at 4NL here

He opts to nit it up, which is fine, it seems to work for him,it doesnt mean its the best way to play. There are plenty of situations where calling with a hand like this is profitable 

percival09

LOL dudeskin has basically wrote his whole strategy there, made it quite easy for you opponents now haven't you? if they read this ... 

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: This hand has been bugging me all day:

In Response to Re: This hand has been bugging me all day : So you're basically saying that there's never a time or a place to play anything other than a very small range of hands then? With all due respect not everyone that plays these levels are completely dumb & anyone paying an inkling of attention will know to steer clear when you get involved.  I'm not knocking it, obviously it works for you but I just think that's not necessarily the right approach in the long run if you're gonna look to move up the levels. 
Posted by silentbob

LOLz you really do play this level right? Players down these parts only see their cards they don't see ANYTHING else I can assure you.

Yes you have some REGS, from my recent sessions I can probably name about 10-15 at a push, now how many players on total do you think play 4NL..... Yes you got it a LOT more than that, so in general REGS leave me alone I leave them alone and we both hoover up the dead money - which is every other player.

Also yep that is my range down here and I'm happy to tell the world because there are SO many new and bad players playing every day it won't make a jot of difference, and of course when I eventually move up to say NL20 terrtory I'll loosen up a bit but just no need right now - currently 1650 bb's up over around 8500-9000 hands.

Codex

a discussion about whether to play Ace suited on the button was not the original question

IN THIS SPECIFIC HAND, the raiser has less than 30BB so its not profitable


sets and nut flush draws are great but you need to get paid when you hit to make up for the times you miss - that wont happen here - you also have to factor in you wont get paid everytime you hit

grantorino

Codex I think its maybe ok to call here given its a minraise and there is a huge chance blinds come along at 4NL. I agree completely with your point in general though