In Response to A OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION ON AN AMNESTY FOR THE BANNED SKYPOKER PLAYERS : How would you propose this would be implemented? Let's say over the last 4 years Sky Poker has been running 300+ people have been forum / chat banned. I don't think that's an unreasonable number given the vast majority of players don't go near the forum and just get banned at the tables. I've played enough night time low level cash to know it must be a regular occurrence. So we have 300+ cases to look into. Many of which would have been given prior warnings. So someone needs to look into each case (that's assuming evidence still exists for prior warnings, previous reports, chat logs, forum posts, etc, from at least the past 4 years) and check if it was a ban due to fraud, unacceptable language, abuse, threatening behaviour, collusion, racism, spam, ****, libel, defamation, etc etc. But all those are ok except for fraud? What about the player who was threatened or racially abused or colluded against and reported that attacker then finds themselves the next day sat at the same table? Posted by Machka
Have an appeals process put in place which has to be prompted by the banned player. Have a standard form for them to fill out with the reasons why they think the ban should be lifted. Make this detailed and not a simple 'click & go.' This will mean you are more likely to get applications from people who really want to return to he forum and be a positive influence/have their table-chat back while discouraging the casual player who just likes to abuse people at the tables/in the forum. It shouldn't be easy to get a life ban lifted but it should be possible in most cases (depending on the reason for the ban). Each case would be looked at by the Mods/Sky Suits and judged on a case by case basis.
This is prompted by the player so I don't think you'll be looking at 300+ people. Many of the chat banned would have already moved on.
Also Mach, is it possible to forum ban a member without deleting their entire post history?
In Response to Re: A OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION ON AN AMNESTY FOR THE BANNED SKYPOKER PLAYERS : Hawk-eye and DRS ftw Lets get a committee of forumers, community mods, and sky poker officials to sit on a panel and interview the banned players, who would have to requeat a hearing if they want their community privalidges back. The forumites would be responsible/respected people, such as the Irishman, who will put their own reputation on the line if they believe the banned player is worthy of another chance. Obv the mods/officials will also have to be convinced, and it will be a zero tolerance policy if any serious infringement is made. ---------------------------- IRISHROVER : N eildown , your files say you've served 4 days of a life sentence. Do you feel you've been rehabilitated? ND : Rehabilitated? Well, now let me see. You know, I don't have any idea what that means. IRISHROVER : Well, it means that you're ready to rejoin the forum..... ND : I know what *you* think it means, sonny. To me it's just a made up word. A politician's word, so young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and a tie, and have a job. What do you really want to know? Am I sorry for what I did? IRISHROVER : Well, are you? ND : There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, or because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then: a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try and talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that. Rehabilitated? It's just a bullsh^^ word. So you go on and stamp your form, sonny, and stop wasting my time. Because to tell you the truth, I don't give a sh**. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
Taken from one of my favourite films. Did you know that it was actually considered a flop at first, probably the title put people off from going to see it at the cinema, but by word of mouth from the viewers at the rental stores, it became a classic.
In Response to Re: A OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION ON AN AMNESTY FOR THE BANNED SKYPOKER PLAYERS : Have an appeals process put in place which has to be prompted by the banned player. Have a standard form for them to fill out with the reasons why they think the ban should be lifted. Make this detailed and not a simple 'click & go.' This will mean you are more likely to get applications from people who really want to return to he forum and be a positive influence/have their table-chat back while discouraging the casual player who just likes to abuse people at the tables/in the forum. It shouldn't be easy to get a life ban lifted but it should be possible in most cases (depending on the reason for the ban). Each case would be looked at by the Mods/Sky Suits and judged on a case by case basis. This is prompted by the player so I don't think you'll be looking at 300+ people. Many of the chat banned would have already moved on. Also Mach, is it possible to forum ban a member without deleting their entire post history? Posted by TommyD
As far as I know all players who are banned have always been warned by email / PM in previous cases. Except in rare cases of multi-accounting / commercial spamming, etc. That's just from information I have seen posted on the forums and nothing to do with extra information gleaned as a Mod (which is minimal).
If I were to be chat / forum banned and thought it was not justified I would go to the contact us page and email / call the numbers on there. I'm not sure the upside to a business in putting in additional processes to retain previously difficult customers. My personal opinion of course. And I would like to see certain characters still here.
Might be worth pointing out for everyone's information that Community Moderators do not make decisions in bans, ever. We might make someone aware of a situation and we have the ability to temporarily remove someone from the forum, which is needed if for instance someone came on the forum spamming racist abuse all over the place.
I don't think the forum software has the ability to ban someone and leave their previous posts on view. Which I agree is a terrible oversight.
imho this forum has become over moderated and anything remotely controversial is either removed or the poster is. As a result there is very little worth reading on here these days, for the most part the threads are as bland as bland can be.
Some of you may have noticed my lack of contributions to the forum of late, why? Simply because there is almost nothing worthy of comment. In the past my posts often got a debate going and contributed to some entertaining threads, many were opposed to my views which was fine by me, I thought that was the idea of a forum, a place for discussion with opposing views freely voiced. Sure there is always a need for the more mundane threads and as grown ups we recognise the obvious boundaries but things have gone way too far.
I too was banned for a period for expressing my honest opinion of a poster who responded to my thread, was I right or wrong? It didn't really matter, he had the power, so I got the ban, it didn't seem very fair to me but hey ho it's Sky's trainset and they make the rules.
If Sky's desire was for a bland boring forum they have imho truly succeeded, this is a shame because in doing so they have removed the opportunity for the more interesting thought provoking threads that contained players honest opinions and a lively debate.
I have previously argued that mickjenn if banned should stay banned but on reflection, reinstate the guy and others like him, this forum needs a pick up desperately.
In Response to Re: A OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION ON AN AMNESTY FOR THE BANNED SKYPOKER PLAYERS : Have an appeals process put in place which has to be prompted by the banned player. Have a standard form for them to fill out with the reasons why they think the ban should be lifted. Make this detailed and not a simple 'click & go.' This will mean you are more likely to get applications from people who really want to return to he forum and be a positive influence/have their table-chat back while discouraging the casual player who just likes to abuse people at the tables/in the forum. It shouldn't be easy to get a life ban lifted but it should be possible in most cases (depending on the reason for the ban). Each case would be looked at by the Mods/Sky Suits and judged on a case by case basis. This is prompted by the player so I don't think you'll be looking at 300+ people. Many of the chat banned would have already moved on. Also Mach, is it possible to forum ban a member without deleting their entire post history? Posted by TommyD
+ 1 Tommy, always the sensible voice of reason!!
Maybe not the thread for individual cases, so excuse this, BUT, but my knowledge of Emilyeggs ban was that it was an official 6-month ban which he was serving, which on asking for confirmation, was informed it was now a life ban for no apparent reason !! this obviously prompted further argument!!
I THINK SOME SORT OF TRANSPARENT APPEAL PROCEEDURE SHOULD BE IN PLACE!!
OR WE MAY KEEP LOSING HUMOUROUS & VALUBLE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE FORUM LIKE... EMILYEGG & NEILDOWN & OTHERS!!
Surley the measure of a successful forum or business is how efficiently it can police itself & solve the problems that WILL occur without them escalating further!!
Machka - oh mod of reason and geekiness xxx You are of course correct; this would be near impossible to implement. But this shouldn't preclude a discussion as to the merits of revoking bans. Of particular interest with respect to Neildown, was his lack of an avenue to express regret or retract. This is something that *some* mods do avail themselves of, even if it is by deleting their offending post. What a luxury to have. Posted by RogueCell
it"s been a while since I became a Mod, so I can't remember. Do individual forum members not have the ability to delete their own, threads / Posts?
In Response to Re: A OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION ON AN AMNESTY FOR THE BANNED SKYPOKER PLAYERS : Hawk-eye and DRS ftw Lets get a committee of forumers, community mods, and sky poker officials to sit on a panel and interview the banned players, who would have to requeat a hearing if they want their community privalidges back. The forumites would be responsible/respected people, such as the Irishman, who will put their own reputation on the line if they believe the banned player is worthy of another chance. Obv the mods/officials will also have to be convinced, and it will be a zero tolerance policy if any serious infringement is made. ---------------------------- IRISHROVER : N eildown , your files say you've served 4 days of a life sentence. Do you feel you've been rehabilitated? ND : Rehabilitated? Well, now let me see. You know, I don't have any idea what that means. IRISHROVER : Well, it means that you're ready to rejoin the forum..... ND : I know what *you* think it means, sonny. To me it's just a made up word. A politician's word, so young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and a tie, and have a job. What do you really want to know? Am I sorry for what I did? IRISHROVER : Well, are you? ND : There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, or because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then: a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try and talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that. Rehabilitated? It's just a bullsh^^ word. So you go on and stamp your form, sonny, and stop wasting my time. Because to tell you the truth, I don't give a sh**. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
In Response to Re: A OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION ON AN AMNESTY FOR THE BANNED SKYPOKER PLAYERS : + 1 Tommy, always the sensible voice of reason!! Maybe not the thread for individual cases, so excuse this, BUT, but my knowledge of Emilyeggs ban was that it was an official 6-month ban which he was serving, which on asking for confirmation, was informed it was now a life ban for no apparent reason !! this obviously prompted further argument!! I THINK SOME SORT OF TRANSPARENT APPEAL PROCEEDURE SHOULD BE IN PLACE!! OR WE MAY KEEP LOSING HUMOUROUS & VALUBLE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE FORUM LIKE... EMILYEGG & NEILDOWN & OTHERS!! Surley the measure of a successful forum or business is how efficiently it can police itself & solve the problems that WILL occur without them escalating further!! Posted by HITMAN_RV
Hi Hitman,
First of all I'd like to make it clear that , my following comments are not directed at the individuals you make reference to in your post. Neither as a Sky Poker Player or as a Sky Mod, do I have the right or inclination to make comments regarding individuals on the open forum.
The point I'd like to make relates to the your comment about individuals being " HUMOUROUS & VALUBLE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE FORUM " It may well be that one person thinks an individual is humorous whilst another will find the same individual offensive in the extreme. Here in lies the rub. it is an opinion a judgement. Machka made an excellent point when he said, how would an individual feel if someone he had been "abused" by or "offended" by continues to be on the tables with him.
The way we get around this is by warning individuals regarding, what they may see as humour or banter. Except in extreme situations, anyone who has been banned has been warned about aspects of their behaviour, usually several times before they are banned. They have been given time and chances to amend their behaviour, if they choose to ignore these warnings then they will be banned, no matter how much of a contribution they may have made in other regards to the community.
This can be frustrating to everyone, you can't really put numbers on it but I'll do it just to show what I'm trying to get at. Any individual who is a useful member of the forum 99% of the time but has a tendency to be abusive 1% of the time has to go in my opinion. I stress this is just an opinion, the forum Mods do not have the power to ban anyone ( nor would we want it ).
You will probably see people counter my points with "this is an adult site, people here are all grown up and should be able to deal with it" Rubbish, this is a Poker site that has been created to let people play and enjoy all aspects of Poker, not just the game itself but the interactive side of speaking and discussing topics with like minded people. Sky has a duty to make sure that all members of this forum can come on and be able to use the forum without having to "tolerate" abusive behaviour of any form.
Anyway, I hope I have made my point clearly and once again Hitman I am not making reference to the individuals you mentioned in your post, but am talking from a general point of view
In Response to Re: A OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION ON AN AMNESTY FOR THE BANNED SKYPOKER PLAYERS : it"s been a while since I became a Mod, so I can't remember. Do individual forum members not have the ability to delete their own, threads / Posts? Posted by JockBMW
Yes their posts, but not the ability to remove whole threads when it suits them not to leave any evidence behind.
i agree we as forum members should have a say, i remember when donut64 was being berated by another player and the whole off the community backed up donut64 up by having a go at other player saying he/she was out off order and should say sorry unfortunatly this player would not back down and got a ban unfortunatly it got to donut64 and he self excluded himself for 6months
An Interesting Discussion topic as always Denis, The banning of players from the forum is a Sky decision and one that is not taken lightly. In all cases the person involved will have received warnings over his, or her, future conduct before they are banned, they will have chosen to ignore those warnings. In addition the rules governing the conduct of forum members are there in black and white for all to see. If a person choses to ignore, firstly the rules and secondly, warnings from Sky, I'm not sure what good it will do to let them back to the forum, they will probably behave for a while and then revert to their old ways. But I suppose everyone deserves a second chance. As I said, an interesting discussion topic, weather it will have any result is up to Sky Posted by JockBMW
As I've said before, I mod on non-poker forum and Jock's post is pretty much the way it happens on there. Some people will respond to requests to stick within rules, others either ignore requests or seem to take it as a challenge. We never ban any long term member without a lot of thought, because it provokes exactly the same reactions as it does on here. On this other site we do warn via pm, but something is also posted on the forum itself so that other members know who and why the mods are trying to reign in. I wouldn't want to be a mod on here!
As moderators, you probably find that a very small percentage of the forum contributors take up 100% of any moderation required, and sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand and say 'no more'.
The argument runs that we're all adults so swearing shouldn't be an issue. But Sky make it quite plain that it is a family site throughout the Sky umbrella, and as we're all adults we need to understand this.
I'm absolutely not refering to any individual case, because I've not seen what any player on here has been banned for because all the posts get removed.
I hear you, Jock, and agree to a large extent. Everyone in the playground laughs when the unpopular kids gets beaten up....apart from the unpopular kid.
I think what people would prefer to see is transparency. I see no reason why, when someone is warned about their behaviour, that can't be recorded within the forum (people charged with crimes play out the events in public), likewise for those that become full bans. That way we'd be able to shake our heads knowingly and say, "they had it coming to them."
I'd also like to see the bans being slightly more moderate - a life ban really should only be for extreme abuse (beyond fraud etc). People do change and mature, in society we recognise this, yes on a muckabout forum, we take the view that once a person proves to be a mindless idiot, they will always be a mindless idiot. Why would that be?
Having served a ban, that individual should consider themselves "out on licence", so they can be re-banned (permanently) for the first offence. We don't need that sort of fool here.
Whilst we've touched on the subject of language, something really should be done about the language in the chat on sky.
Everyone knows you can get round the **** by joiningwordstogether, or separ ating th em. And there's some very starnge words that are banned (I'm not sure if they will show up here)
Forest
Fix
Seem to be 2 unnecessary ones. If I want to tell a mate I went to fix me car today, it looks like I might be having carnal knowledge of my motor vehicle in the chat box!
In Response to Re: A OPEN FORUM DISCUSSION ON AN AMNESTY FOR THE BANNED SKYPOKER PLAYERS : Hawk-eye and DRS ftw Lets get a committee of forumers, community mods, and sky poker officials to sit on a panel and interview the banned players, who would have to requeat a hearing if they want their community privalidges back. The forumites would be responsible/respected people, such as the Irishman, who will put their own reputation on the line if they believe the banned player is worthy of another chance. Obv the mods/officials will also have to be convinced, and it will be a zero tolerance policy if any serious infringement is made. ---------------------------- IRISHROVER : N eildown , your files say you've served 4 days of a life sentence. Do you feel you've been rehabilitated? ND : Rehabilitated? Well, now let me see. You know, I don't have any idea what that means. IRISHROVER : Well, it means that you're ready to rejoin the forum..... ND : I know what *you* think it means, sonny. To me it's just a made up word. A politician's word, so young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and a tie, and have a job. What do you really want to know? Am I sorry for what I did? IRISHROVER : Well, are you? ND : There's not a day goes by I don't feel regret. Not because I'm in here, or because you think I should. I look back on the way I was then: a young, stupid kid who committed that terrible crime. I want to talk to him. I want to try and talk some sense to him, tell him the way things are. But I can't. That kid's long gone and this old man is all that's left. I got to live with that. Rehabilitated? It's just a bullsh^^ word. So you go on and stamp your form, sonny, and stop wasting my time. Because to tell you the truth, I don't give a sh**. Posted by DOHHHHHHH
lol at this doh , i remember a night on here awhile back , you yourself went on forum tilt . I & hoggers calmed you down that night via pm . After this you backed tracked and delted posts .
something similar hapened myself another night and elsadog came to my rescue .
Geting to my point , even do mods do a great job , sometimes they cant get trough to the player , we all make mistakes , i think before a forum ban is put in place , it should be noted in forum that such a player is about to cross that line . A yellow card as such, but let it be known, so forum peeps & now team forum peeps can help out .
Comments
This is prompted by the player so I don't think you'll be looking at 300+ people. Many of the chat banned would have already moved on.
Also Mach, is it possible to forum ban a member without deleting their entire post history?
The thread about young guns forum pic was a classic, shame it had to be deleted.
If I were to be chat / forum banned and thought it was not justified I would go to the contact us page and email / call the numbers on there. I'm not sure the upside to a business in putting in additional processes to retain previously difficult customers. My personal opinion of course. And I would like to see certain characters still here.
Might be worth pointing out for everyone's information that Community Moderators do not make decisions in bans, ever. We might make someone aware of a situation and we have the ability to temporarily remove someone from the forum, which is needed if for instance someone came on the forum spamming racist abuse all over the place.
I don't think the forum software has the ability to ban someone and leave their previous posts on view. Which I agree is a terrible oversight.
imho this forum has become over moderated and anything remotely controversial is either removed or the poster is. As a result there is very little worth reading on here these days, for the most part the threads are as bland as bland can be.
Some of you may have noticed my lack of contributions to the forum of late, why? Simply because there is almost nothing worthy of comment. In the past my posts often got a debate going and contributed to some entertaining threads, many were opposed to my views which was fine by me, I thought that was the idea of a forum, a place for discussion with opposing views freely voiced. Sure there is always a need for the more mundane threads and as grown ups we recognise the obvious boundaries but things have gone way too far.
I too was banned for a period for expressing my honest opinion of a poster who responded to my thread, was I right or wrong? It didn't really matter, he had the power, so I got the ban, it didn't seem very fair to me but hey ho it's Sky's trainset and they make the rules.
If Sky's desire was for a bland boring forum they have imho truly succeeded, this is a shame because in doing so they have removed the opportunity for the more interesting thought provoking threads that contained players honest opinions and a lively debate.
I have previously argued that mickjenn if banned should stay banned but on reflection, reinstate the guy and others like him, this forum needs a pick up desperately.
I await my new ban, this posts removal or both.
Maybe not the thread for individual cases, so excuse this, BUT, but my knowledge of Emilyeggs ban was that it was an official 6-month ban which he was serving, which on asking for confirmation, was informed it was now a life ban for no apparent reason !! this obviously prompted further argument!!
I THINK SOME SORT OF TRANSPARENT APPEAL PROCEEDURE SHOULD BE IN PLACE!!
OR WE MAY KEEP LOSING HUMOUROUS & VALUBLE CONTRIBUTORS TO THE FORUM LIKE... EMILYEGG & NEILDOWN & OTHERS!!
Surley the measure of a successful forum or business is how efficiently it can police itself & solve the problems that WILL occur without them escalating further!!
ShawShank Redemption comes to mind
As moderators, you probably find that a very small percentage of the forum contributors take up 100% of any moderation required, and sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand and say 'no more'.
The argument runs that we're all adults so swearing shouldn't be an issue. But Sky make it quite plain that it is a family site throughout the Sky umbrella, and as we're all adults we need to understand this.
I'm absolutely not refering to any individual case, because I've not seen what any player on here has been banned for because all the posts get removed.
lol at this doh ,
i remember a night on here awhile back ,
you yourself went on forum tilt .
I & hoggers calmed you down that night via pm .
After this you backed tracked and delted posts .
something similar hapened myself another night and elsadog
came to my rescue .
Geting to my point ,
even do mods do a great job ,
sometimes they cant get trough to the player ,
we all make mistakes ,
i think before a forum ban is put in place ,
it should be noted in forum that such a player is
about to cross that line .
A yellow card as such,
but let it be known,
so forum peeps & now team forum peeps can help out .
A lot of good ideas and points so far guys/gals .
Its great this thread is still open &
the manner in which its discussed is civil .
Fingers crossed ,
some of the very good ideas but forward will be implemented.
DEN.