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Opinions please

YouKnowsItYouKnowsIt Member Posts: 331
edited July 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Start of a 5.50 DYM, was I just unlucky or what should I have done, please dont say make pre bigger cause I would have been called anyway, just the rest of the hand. Is he a mathmatical geneious or just a fish?
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
YouKnowsIt Small blind  10.00 10.00 1970.00
philip2626 Big blind  20.00 30.00 2030.00
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
     
stuie78 Call  20.00 50.00 1980.00
Nazif81 Fold     
Seanstar Call  20.00 70.00 1960.00
ROYALWREN Fold     
YouKnowsIt Raise  90.00 160.00 1880.00
philip2626 Fold     
stuie78 Call  80.00 240.00 1900.00
Seanstar Call  80.00 320.00 1880.00
Flop
   
  • 2
  • 8
  • J
     
YouKnowsIt Bet  320.00 640.00 1560.00
stuie78 Call  320.00 960.00 1580.00
Seanstar Call  320.00 1280.00 1560.00
Turn
   
  • 8
     
YouKnowsIt Bet  960.00 2240.00 600.00
stuie78 Fold     
Seanstar All-in  1560.00 3800.00 0.00
YouKnowsIt All-in  600.00 4400.00 0.00
YouKnowsIt Show
  • K
  • K
   
Seanstar Show
  • Q
  • A
   
River
   
  • 5
     
Seanstar Win Flush to the Ace 4400.00  4400.00
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Comments

  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Opinions please:
    Start of a 5.50 DYM, was I just unlucky or what should I have done, please dont say make pre bigger cause I would have been called anyway, just the rest of the hand Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance YouKnowsIt Small blind   10.00 10.00 1970.00 philip2626 Big blind   20.00 30.00 2030.00   Your hole cards K K       stuie78 Call   20.00 50.00 1980.00 Nazif81 Fold         Seanstar Call   20.00 70.00 1960.00 ROYALWREN Fold         YouKnowsIt Raise   90.00 160.00 1880.00 philip2626 Fold         stuie78 Call   80.00 240.00 1900.00 Seanstar Call   80.00 320.00 1880.00 Flop     2 8 J       YouKnowsIt Bet   320.00 640.00 1560.00 stuie78 Call   320.00 960.00 1580.00 Seanstar Call   320.00 1280.00 1560.00 Turn     8       YouKnowsIt Bet   960.00 2240.00 600.00 stuie78 Fold         Seanstar All-in   1560.00 3800.00 0.00 YouKnowsIt All-in   600.00 4400.00 0.00 YouKnowsIt Show K K       Seanstar Show Q A       River     5       Seanstar Win Flush to the Ace 4400.00   4400.00
    Posted by YouKnowsIt
    Then why didn't you do it?
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited July 2011
    played fine, should have been bigger pre though
    got your money in as a 75% fave, can't do much else just UL 


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  • YouKnowsItYouKnowsIt Member Posts: 331
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: Opinions please:
    In Response to Opinions please : Then why didn't you do it?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    So what would you suggest I bet pre? also how would you have played the hand from my point of view?
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2011
    Well you said it would be pointless raising more pre, because you would have been called anyway.....

    Is that in hindsight, because you saw he had AQ? Or did you have a read that he would call any raise?

    Your raise size isn't too bad readless, it could be abit bigger, but I assumed from your comment that the players were calling anything, so it would be a good idea to get more money in as we have the 2nd nuts?

    -----------

    I play it post flop pretty much the same as you, I don't like the flop, but the turn is a good card, and I probably just shove the turn 3 handed.

    The only real talking point in the hand though is the pre flop play, which you dismissed straight away. I'd like to know 

    a) what made you think you would have been called if you had raised more?

    b) If you believed you would be called, why didn't you raise more?
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  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited July 2011
    I'd give up when the c-bet gets 2 callers, it's an absolutely awful flop for your KK, particularly seeing as you're OOP. Check the turn and see what they decide to do, you might get a free river card, but I'd fold to big turn action.

    At the £5 level I'm assuming opponents are at least semi-competant, so their calling range should include a lot of medium and low pairs, suited aces and suited connectors, this flop absolutely smashes their range (I'm being non-results orientated here).

    Pre-flop over 2 limpers I'd make it 150, with KK you want to see a flop HU. If you take the pot pre-flop thats fine also.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2011

    I think if we're beat on the flop we would be raised on that board.

    There's a chance that 1/both of them are terrible and have floated with 8x after limp/calling with it pre, but I dunno what you can do about that.
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  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: Opinions please:
    I think if we're beat on the flop we would be raised on that board. There's a chance that 1/both of them are terrible and have floated with 8x after limp/calling with it pre, but I dunno what you can do about that.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    You almost certainly wouldn't be raised on the flop by the nut-flush.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: Opinions please:
    In Response to Re: Opinions please : You almost certainly wouldn't be raised on the flop by the nut-flush.
    Posted by GaryQQQ
    lol! I suppose!!

    I don't even consider that it's possible someone might flop a flush. it's too hard to do.

    Maybe I should start considering it, gliterbabe would be 90 quid worse off if I did!!

    I still think all sets/J8/alot of flushes still raise this board in a dym, especially in a multi way pot.
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  • GaryQQQGaryQQQ Member Posts: 6,804
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: Opinions please:
    I don't even consider that it's possible someone might flop a flush. it's too hard to do. Maybe I should start considering it Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Flat callers often hold suited connectors and suited aces, a flushed flop is very bad news for your off-suit overpair in a multi-way pot. If this were a rainbow or 2-suited flop I'd play it the same way as the OP.
     
    In a DYM I'd probably check-fold this flop, it's a nightmare to play OOP. I'd rather save my stack for a better spot. Ultra-tightness FTW in DYM early stages, if you have to lay down KK then so be it.
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  • JohnConnorJohnConnor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited July 2011
    Personally I raise slightly bigger pre. The flop play is good imo, and the turn is ok, although I would just jam it here, I want this shut down. I agree with DOHHHHHHH about never worrying about flopped flushes, they are too rare and DYMs are too shallow to worry about them. When a good card comes on the turn, get it in for me. Not sure what to say about the question at the end of the OP....
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  • YouKnowsItYouKnowsIt Member Posts: 331
    edited July 2011
    good points both and to answer you Dohhhhh from my experience in DYM's, the early stages you get call by all sorts of rubbish pre whether I raise 4x bb or make it 150, even if I shoved it pre I bet I would have been called, hence the 4xbb, point 2, in my experience again at this level of 5.50 with my pocket KK and the flop as it was, yes it did slow me down a little but I would have expected to be re raised on that flop if he had hit the flush, when I bet the blank turn and he re shoved, it said to me he was drawing, hence why the play went like it did.
    One other point how did he not know I hit the flush on the flop, is he just hanging round to luck the river as he had nothing till the river hit?

    Yes I probably played it wrong hence why I was asking for opinions, DYM's 5.50 you get a **** of a lot of fish and people playing ATC but my read at the time before it all went in before the river was that I was infront

    Like you know I have only been playing for a few months so just wondered what the more experienced players thought
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  • CodexCodex Member Posts: 211
    edited July 2011
    as noted, re-raise pre is too small


    for the flop, i dont see the need to bet pot here - what are you representing? - an overpair or two big overcards - surely you want to represent a flush?

    a lot of players are also reluctant to call if they dont have a heart here but the pot bet pretty much screams you dont have a flush



    to sum up, when you could be very confident you had the best hand, you bet small
    when you were no longer confident you had the best hand, you bet big
    if you do this all the time, its a huge tell
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  • YouKnowsItYouKnowsIt Member Posts: 331
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: Opinions please:
    as noted, re-raise pre is too small for the flop, i dont see the need to bet pot here - what are you representing? - an overpair or two big overcards - surely you want to represent a flush? a lot of players are also reluctant to call if they dont have a heart here but the pot bet pretty much screams you dont have a flush to sum up, when you could be very confident you had the best hand, you bet small when you were no longer confident you had the best hand, you bet big if you do this all the time, its a huge tell
    Posted by Codex
    I twas a half pot bet codex
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  • YouKnowsItYouKnowsIt Member Posts: 331
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: Opinions please:
    Personally I raise slightly bigger pre. The flop play is good imo, and the turn is ok, although I would just jam it here, I want this shut down. I agree with DOHHHHHHH about never worrying about flopped flushes, they are too rare and DYMs are too shallow to worry about them. When a good card comes on the turn, get it in for me. Not sure what to say about the question at the end of the OP....
    Posted by JohnConnor
    I respect what you say John cause i know how good you are at these DYM's but your level is better than what you come accross in the 5.50, if I raised slightly bigger I would be called and even if I jammed it wouldnt surprised me if I was called. Yes I know over time thats great but 5.50's throw up all sorts of mad play
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited July 2011

    If you believe you get called alot of the time if you just shove all in pre, I'd just do that.

    I've played abit at this level though and although there are some bad players, they aren't THAT bad.

    They will limp/call more than 5xbb though.

    Just raise as much pre flop as you believe they will call, if that's all in, then so be it, why not?
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  • YouKnowsItYouKnowsIt Member Posts: 331
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: Opinions please:
    If you believe you get called alot of the time if you just shove all in pre, I'd just do that. I've played abit at this level though and although there are some bad players, they aren't THAT bad. They will limp/call more than 5xbb though. Just raise as much pre flop as you believe they will call, if that's all in, then so be it, why not?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    the only reason it didnt go in pre is cause it was about the 3rd hand. I have shoved JJ in to AA and QQ into KK in those positions very early in DYM's so had some caution, if I had the KK and an ace hit flop its a different story but like I said I thought I was good all th way thru the hand

    Oh and dohhh try playing them again, you will see what I mean about so peoples play, I have a list of them lol

    Play 10 of them at 5.50 and see how many you win as a little challenge, bet you will be posting hands all over the poker clinic, beats/brags/var and area 51 forums lol
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  • CodexCodex Member Posts: 211
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: Opinions please:
    In Response to Re: Opinions please : I twas a half pot bet codex
    Posted by YouKnowsIt

    ah my bad
    i really struggle with these hand histories!

    i'd say flop if fine then, but on turn, its kind of a weird bet size, may as well be all in as putting in 3/5ths stack

    at that point nothing you can do, the guy doesn't have the odds to call so its a mistake but sometimes he's gonna hit it - this being one of those times
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  • CodexCodex Member Posts: 211
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: Opinions please:
    In Response to Re: Opinions please : I twas a half pot bet codex
    Posted by YouKnowsIt

    ah my bad
    i really struggle with these hand histories!

    i'd say flop if fine then, but on turn, its kind of a weird bet size, may as well be all in as putting in 3/5ths stack

    at that point nothing you can do, the guy doesn't have the odds to call so its a mistake but sometimes he's gonna hit it - this being one of those times
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  • YouKnowsItYouKnowsIt Member Posts: 331
    edited July 2011
    In Response to Re: Opinions please:
    In Response to Re: Opinions please : ah my bad i really struggle with these hand histories! i'd say flop if fine then, but on turn, its kind of a weird bet size, may as well be all in as putting in 3/5ths stack at that point nothing you can do, the guy doesn't have the odds to call so its a mistake but sometimes he's gonna hit it - this being one of those times
    Posted by Codex
    lol no worries mate, they can be difficult to understand, I thought the bet on the turn would have got him off the draw, thats why I was asking here if he had the right value to gamble it for his stack on the 3rd hand
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited July 2011
    looks good to me, you can prob get away with making it bigger pre so do that.
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