Wrong to Shove?? Please Help!

Lambert180

Hi all,

Just wanted to get a general opinion whether people thought my play was ok or not. I can tell you that it didn't work this particular time and I was knocked out, but do you think in the long run, it is a bad play?

This may be taboo here but I was playing on another site (Titan)...

Right, so it was a $1 Freezeout with 339 runners, the cash bubble was at 40th and we were down to 11 people so it was way past the bubble, but they play 10 to a table so it was the final table bubble. It was also a turbo tournament, so no-one was very deep stacked. The blinds were 1750-3500 with a 350 ante. I had 52,320 and the other player concerned had 75,853 (most other people on the table only have around 20-40k)

There were 6 people on my table, and I was under the gun +1. Under the gun folded, I raise to 10,500 with A8s (yes I'm aware of the danger of playing rag Aces), the guy to my left folds and then the big stack re-raises me to 31,777 from the button. It's folded round to me, so just me and him left, I shove the rest of my stack 41,470 he calls, and has AK.

As you would guess, his AK beat my A8.

So do you think this is a bad move in the long run, and was I wrong to do it? I just keep thinking that with him being the big stack on the table and being on the button, he could have re-raised with a massive range, so a good amount of the time, I am ahead. Do you think I could ever make him fold there or was he already committed?

Thanks!

percival09

you have around 15BB, imo you should either shove or fold pre

raising with A8 in that position is bad, shoving would be acceptable, i'd fold though

that's the problem you face, once you raise you've committed 3 of your 15BB, so with what's already in the pot, ante's, BB, SB and the villains chips, you probably have to go with it, even though you know your behind

there is no way whatsoever your opponent could ever fold, unless he's an idiot!

as a general rule, with around and under 16BB, try to just fold or shove pre, definitely don't raise/fold with that stack!

Codex

first point is when you at this stage of a tournament you dont need to raise so high - min raising is fine

this is because most people will be in shove/fold mode and its cheaper to fold small raises than big raises - they are not looking at the sise of your raise to decide whether to shove and they are not calling light due to the size of bets on the flop - ante's boost pot size so continuation bets will be significant portions of a stack - which is why people shove or fold


i'd min raise and fold to the raise - people don't generally re-raise like this light unless you've been raising frequently


depends a bit on the table but its worth min raising a lot because the ante's make the pots so valuable even if you fold every other raise you still make chips but in mean time instead of having tight image where everyone folds when u finally raise with your big hand, you're far more likely to have someone shove over you light (this is more the case on a full table, not short handed)

percival09

In Response to Re: Wrong to Shove?? Please Help!:

first point is when you at this stage of a tournament you dont need to raise so high - min raising is fine this is because most people will be in shove/fold mode and its cheaper to fold small raises than big raises - they are not looking at the sise of your raise to decide whether to shove and they are not calling light due to the size of bets on the flop - ante's boost pot size so continuation bets will be significant portions of a stack - which is why people shove or fold i'd min raise and fold to the raise - people don't generally re-raise like this light unless you've been raising frequently depends a bit on the table but its worth min raising a lot because the ante's make the pots so valuable even if you fold every other raise you still make chips but in mean time instead of having tight image where everyone folds when u finally raise with your big hand, you're far more likely to have someone shove over you light (this is more the case on a full table, not short handed)
Posted by Codex

that's bad advice though, you can't raise fold with 15BB! especially in a tournament with antes

grantorino

reads are important but with roughly 15BB and 4 players behind I would just be sticking it in usually

If you want to raise less than a shove about 8-9k is plenty here . It would be pretty tough raise/fold though imo I'd prob be calling it off anyway

BigBluster

At this stage of a tournament there's a lot of blind stealing going on. You need to make sure you get your share.
I don't subscribe to the shove/fold ethos when this deep, so would've raised then folded to a re-raise. However, not from your position. On the button I'd have made it 10K and folded to a re-raise (min-raising is not fine in this instance because of the antes), in your position it hits the muck quicker than a quick thing.

percival09

In Response to Re: Wrong to Shove?? Please Help!:

At this stage of a tournament there's a lot of blind stealing going on. You need to make sure you get your share. I don't subscribe to the shove/fold ethos when this deep, so would've raised then folded to a re-raise. However, not from your position. On the button I'd have made it 10K and folded to a re-raise (min-raising is not fine in this instance because of the antes), in your position it hits the muck quicker than a quick thing.
Posted by BigBluster

so you'd raise/fold 20% of your stack?

Lambert180

Thanks guys.

Appreciated all your input and after having a little think about it, I think percival is in the right. I gotta agree with him, that I can't be doing anything other than shoving/folding, even a limp would be almost 10% of my stack and there's no way you can limp at this stage.

So it was shove or fold and in the light of day, for me, it's a clear fold. I think I was probably just being a bit eager to win, as doubling up through him would have made me tourney chip leader by quite a long way.

Codex

i certainly wouldn't advocate a limp

shove or fold are both fine but A8 in this spot i'd fold rather fold than shove - because the hands calling are going ot be bigger Aces

min raising is fine when people are in shove fold mode - depending on table aggression you can quite often have 2/3rds of your raises folded out and before long, you aren't at 15bb anymore

DrSharp

Difficult. You could get away from this. You could raise slightly less but with people still to act behind you, including the big stack on the table it is a simple snap fold. IMO, too many people still to act after you. I would have no problem making the play from a better position. You should be reasonably comfortable with that stack on that table. I would also like to say that i dont play turbo's, they are a bit quick for me so maybe you should be a bit more aggressive.

As played, i dont like it, but i fold to his re-raise and then punch the cushion next to me and start swearing at the screen.

Batkin88

I don't feel fold or shove pre with 15bb is the way to play the end of a tournament. 15bb is a big enough stack to play with personally i fold here 99% of the time if i bet i would raise and fold and know it was a mistake lol

AyrGraeme

In Response to Re: Wrong to Shove?? Please Help!:

In Response to Re: Wrong to Shove?? Please Help! : that's bad advice though, you can't raise fold with 15BB! especially in a tournament with antes
Posted by percival09

Why not?  I have plenty of times.  Down to 9 or 8 then you have to commit but you can raise fold and still have 10+ blinds

BigBluster

In Response to Re: Wrong to Shove?? Please Help!:

In Response to Re: Wrong to Shove?? Please Help! : so you'd raise/fold 20% of your stack?
Posted by percival09

Quite happily.

jackwolf

In Response to Re: Wrong to Shove?? Please Help!:

In Response to Re: Wrong to Shove?? Please Help! : Quite happily.
Posted by BigBluster

you have to fold pre flop to his reraise there's no way he's folding to a shove from you there's to much in the pot you can't buy him off and with a reraise like that and not a shove he has to be holding aa kk for me, to reraise like that with ak is poor in my opinion because he's normaly only geting called with aa or kk.personaly i would much rather shove preflop with 67,78,89,910 than ace rag

Poker_Fail

By the sound of it you were 2nd in the tourney at that point, there was no need to get involved with A8 at all.

percival09

ok, raise folding 15 BB in a turbo structure is basically committing suicide .............. but w.e

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Wrong to Shove?? Please Help!:

By the sound of it you were 2nd in the tourney at that point, there was no need to get involved with A8 at all.
Posted by Poker_Fail

Yeah I know you're right, it's a major leak in my game. I tend to lose a bit of my self discipline right near the end of a tourney because I'm too eager to try and win it. With same size stacks at another point in the tournament, I'm folding A8 instantly.

Maybe it's naive of me, being fairly new in terms of taking the game pretty seriously, so I dunno if it's just me (I'm sure there must be other people out there that do it) but sometimes I just get caught up, especially at that stage where just stealing the blinds is a nice addition to your stack, and I raise and literally as soon as I've done it, I think "Why did I do that!" and hope that it gets folded round.

AyrGraeme

In Response to Re: Wrong to Shove?? Please Help!:

ok, raise folding 15 BB in a turbo structure is basically committing suicide .............. but w.e
Posted by percival09

I think it is effectively your last chance to do it - next time you are committed

GREGHOGG

Fold or shove pre for me every time.

I would probably fold from utg +1 and my "comfortable" stack.