Should I flat turn?

mattless

Opponent seems nitty and doesn't buy in for max.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
sub000zero	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£17.42
madmoney19	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£16.76
	Your hole cards	3 4
Frowme	Fold
wurzo	Fold
mattless	Raise		£0.80	£1.10	£27.58
x	Call		£0.80	£1.90	£10.79
sub000zero	Fold
madmoney19	Fold
Flop
		4 Q 4
mattless	Bet		£0.95	£2.85	£26.63
x	Raise		£1.90	£4.75	£8.89
mattless	Call		£0.95	£5.70	£25.68
Turn
		A
mattless	Check
x	Bet		£2.85	£8.55	£6.04
mattless	Raise		£8.55	£17.10	£17.13
x	Fold
mattless	Muck
mattless	Win		£10.83		£27.96
mattless	Return		£5.70	£0.57	£33.66

GREGHOGG

I would have four bet the flop for value! Its unlikely he is bluffing and if he is bluffing, your not gonna get much more anyway, so hope he has a Q and cant fold!

If i flat the flop, i probably lead the turn because although the A is a scare card for him, its also possible it has hit him, and he will prob still call a bet if he has the Q.

As played, yes a flat is best on the turn because a c/r looks so strong and if he has nitty tendancies he will not stack off without the ace at least. so flat and value town the river.

EDIT... just read stack sizes again. think your ul not to get a call on the turn. He didnt have much behind in proportion to the pot!! So little point flatting i guess 

AMYBR

Think your turning your hand face up with 4bet on flop.

I just flat behind turn and let him bluff at it again on river.  He isnt strong here, no A or Q IMO

grantorino

greg I dont see why you would lead an A on turn, I also dont see why you flat flop raise if you intend leading turn.

He may well bluff this board, but I think I like 3betting flop cos shorty nits dont usually like folding once they raise

Once I get to the turn, I prob flat but that sucks because if i do that Im checking river to him and he'll check behind lots so I dont hate the raise

I also wouldnt open 34s without a good reason, but you may have one and its not terribad or anything

DrSharp

Yeah, i flat the turn too. I think he continues on the river. He's the one building the pot, he probably shoves river. If he doesnt then i dont think you get much more out of him anyway. You could always lead out the river for value and hope he shoves that way but it is read dependent on how aggro the player has been or how he's been playing.

mattless

My thinking at the time  was that if I let him lead out on turn, he would have put half his stack in so can't fold to my raise. As greg says if he has the queen a 4 bet flop might be better.

In retrospect I think the ace is a bad card and this is what makes him fold. I think the c/r on turn just looks too strong, a flat and lead out the river I might get the rest of his chips, but I don't think so.

Check river and I think he checks behind

grantorino

why does flatting turn leading river look less strong thsn c/r turn?

mattless

In Response to Re: Should I flat turn?:

why does flatting turn leading river look less strong thsn c/r turn?
Posted by grantorino

In retrospect I think the ace is a bad card and this is what makes him fold. I think the c/r on turn just looks too strong, a flat and lead out the river I might get the rest of his chips, but I don't think so.

I'm not sure it does, but if we assume he has a queen or 55-JJ and a blank comes it is the only way to get more of his chips. As it happens I think the Ace means either way he's done with the hand, which brings us back to a 4 bet flop as the only way I get more

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Should I flat turn?:

greg I dont see why you would lead an A on turn, I also dont see why you flat flop raise if you intend leading turn. He may well bluff this board, but I think I like 3betting flop cos shorty nits dont usually like folding once they raise Once I get to the turn, I prob flat but that sucks because if i do that Im checking river to him and he'll check behind lots so I dont hate the raise I also wouldnt open 34s without a good reason, but you may have one and its not terribad or anything
Posted by grantorino

I said i would probably raise again on the flop. I dont like flatting the flop vs the player type matless described. I dont care if my hand is "face up"  most average nits wont believe ive got the "4"  If hes got the Q, hes going broke on the flop. simple. I think nits will have the Q alot of the time. However, If i know the player likes to bluff IP tho, obviously i would flat his raise and then check the turn to induce action.

The turn lead was on the basis that i think the guy has got something due to his flop clickback. But i wouldnt play it this way because i would be raising the flop!

I dont mind raising with 43s unopened in a cash game at all. even at 20nl.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Should I flat turn?:

In Response to Re: Should I flat turn? : I said i would probably raise again on the flop. I dont like flatting the flop vs the player type matless described. I dont care if my hand is "face up"  most average nits wont believe ive got the "4"  If hes got the Q, hes going broke on the flop. simple. I think nits will have the Q alot of the time. However, If i know the player likes to bluff IP tho, obviously i would flat his raise and then check the turn to induce action. The turn lead was on the basis that i think the guy has got something due to his flop clickback. But i wouldnt play it this way because i would be raising the flop! I dont mind raising with 43s unopened in a cash game at all. even at 20nl.
Posted by GREGHOGG

Im not going to argue about opening 34s, I think it depends whos left to act, especially those in position to you. If its profitable I think its usually marginally so, and I think way to many people auto open small suited connectors without thinking at low stakes.

I know you want to 3bet flop, but if you flat flop I think you have to check turn. If he has something he'll bet anyway, and if you are going to lead turn anyway 3betting flop is a far better option. The A is an especially bad card to lead

corn_rat22

I just flat the turn