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river 3bet sizing after spawning nuts vs spew box after repping flop and turn (badly)
AMYBR
Member Posts: 3,432
£1/2 6 handed live cash.
UTG+2 limps, I find AK in SB, fairly spewy game, make it £11 to go. Am sat with around £540. BB folds, limper calls as expected.
£24 in pot 10J2r. Opponent limp calls wide here, often AK is ahead, I bet £13, limper calls IP.
£50 in pot, I have around £530 back, oppent has me coverd with about £7 - £750. 10J2 5. Opponent calls flop often with air or under pair, my image is fairly solid, I figure $42 gets the job done, doesnt, he calls IP
£134 in pot 10J2 5 Q (no flush in play). River the nuts after a relatively bad bet at turn. I have around £490 back, opponent has me covered. He had me crushed at turn, def slowplaying a big J or set, knowing I was firing oop @ turn. I lead £45, looking for a raise, he obliges, making it £110.
Got to be honest, put opponent on AJ in hand, pretty solid read (its what he had), what size do you make river 3bet? or just jam. Feeling strongly opponent has AJ, how do we feel about thin value rather than giving opponent leverage to fold? (i.e river 3 bet jam)
UTG+2 limps, I find AK in SB, fairly spewy game, make it £11 to go. Am sat with around £540. BB folds, limper calls as expected.
£24 in pot 10J2r. Opponent limp calls wide here, often AK is ahead, I bet £13, limper calls IP.
£50 in pot, I have around £530 back, oppent has me coverd with about £7 - £750. 10J2 5. Opponent calls flop often with air or under pair, my image is fairly solid, I figure $42 gets the job done, doesnt, he calls IP
£134 in pot 10J2 5 Q (no flush in play). River the nuts after a relatively bad bet at turn. I have around £490 back, opponent has me covered. He had me crushed at turn, def slowplaying a big J or set, knowing I was firing oop @ turn. I lead £45, looking for a raise, he obliges, making it £110.
Got to be honest, put opponent on AJ in hand, pretty solid read (its what he had), what size do you make river 3bet? or just jam. Feeling strongly opponent has AJ, how do we feel about thin value rather than giving opponent leverage to fold? (i.e river 3 bet jam)
Comments
River, do you put him on AJ before you bet? Is he really likely to raise AJ? Obv you know villain but that Q is a bad card for a lot of his range, if he has 2pair+ he prob raises anyway so I like betting big on the river as its hard for him to call a 3bet with one pair hands (when he raises your weak lead theres only the same in pot as if you bet big yourself). Also if he calls a weak lead/3bet he prob raises a big river bet anyway. Again you know your victim so you know better what he's likely to do
If you really think he has AJ nearly all the time as played I think I just shove, I think he snaps his big hands and if he levels himself into calling a small raise with AJ he prob levels himself into calling a shove
pretty solid read i put him on AJ?? yet you say you think he is slow playing a big hand set or big Jack(not exactly a big hand on that board
fwiw i bet 250 get some value or get him to spazzzz out
Something he gave off just gave me a strong impression he wasnt even going to considor the Q put him behind. He clearly called flop and turn to bluff catch, knowing he was ahead and was then unwilling to reassess. Stubborn kind of guy, not really playing on a thinking level ever.
(I already said turn bet was bad ty grantorino
like i said 250ish would have done similar to you anyways, if you put him on AJ im not 2 barrelling the turn thats pretty spewy also if you check and hit the Q for free more likely to get villain to stack of
Its not a big hand for you, nor me. But many people dont play as much as many of us in this forum have. Often sat across from people who dont really understand poker, people who have too much beer in them and people who've just ran uber well at BJ and Roulette and feel like sitting down to play. Most poker players play very badly and have no understanding of a profitable thinking opproach to the long game.
If I put him on AJ before I bet turn then still bet it is super dumb. Was pretty dumb regardless, this guy plays pretty wide though and AK is often going to be best hand, but I ought to have been c/c. c/f or c/r here.
Opponent is super spwey and feels strongly he has had best hand whole way, I see nothing in his attitude that that opinion has changed. I could bet £80 - £110, but opponent is much more likely to flat if i do so. The weak underbet was designed to raised, which it was. I can 3 bet jam, but as bad as he is, he may come up with a fold. Leaving the door open for him to make the last bet is good vs this player, as he is capable of opening that door. Equally, if he doesnt, he is tied to the pot for value from the 3 bet. He was certainly not folding to the 3 bet size, that much I knew. So betting weaker here is a solid alternative to looking for lead call value
I dont want this to come across as aggro grantorino, but do you never mix up your game or alter lines?
We arent talking about an online game with semi fluid opponents, the majority of the hands I have ever put up in the clinic are against live regs that I've played with for years for reasonable amounts of money.
We can always say "make this bet size, 3bet this size, 4 bet here, flat here" and such and such, but poker isnt really about always doing the right thing. It can often be about intentionally doing the wrong thing to delude and misguide our opponents, manipulating bet sizes and action. There is a standard of play we aspire to reach and maintain, but even when that level is attained, it includes throwing curveballs and being unpredictable. We cant always do the same thing, especially when we have a good feel for opponents habits and betting tendancies.
I guess much of this is more applicable to 1 table live play. Your all much better online players than me, for so many many reasons and I have alot of respect for that. But I think in many ways some of you guys lean far too heavily on the pure technical aspect of the game.
Also what is your problem with what I posted in this thread? I said I mightnt always bet flop and turn, but I prob would. On river I said I like betting bigger and gave reasons for same. I also said as played I prefer shoving to 3betting small and gave reasons, which is specifically what you asked about. So why post the hand? There's a section for brags, no point in putting it in the clinic if you just going to dismiss all different opinions than your own.
I doubt this guy calls a weak lead/3bet with wider than he raises a single bigger value bet, which is what needs to happen to make your line good.
If you dont want me to post anymore in your threads just say so, its not a problem.
Really wasnt aggro and it seems you've taken it slightly that way.
You're right, the paint by numbers comment was a tad rude, but I didnt mean it that way. What I meant was that the posts you put up do tend to be a bit rigid, and for someone like myself who doesnt purely adhere to EV, they can become abit ...well... rigid
It wasnt meant to be a brag post bud. Am well aware that my game doesnt run in line with pure EV and some of my thinking in regard to bet sizing/info was off (which I hugely improved based on yours and lol-raises's thoughts), so I am hugely curious as to what players that I respect would do in certain circumstances and why.
Your are most welcome to post on any thread bud and I enjoy your input, it would be nice if you conceded a point here or there though
Only thing I've assumed about you is that you have a solid poker mind. I'm always looking for multiple ways to skin a cat though.
I will argue my side, and am honestly willing to concede a point etc( I am well aware there is prob lots I am wrong about and I have huge leaks) but if something makes no sense to me I will say so. You are not exactly shy about arguing your own side. I think a lot of the problem is I find it very hard to follow your train of thought through a hand.
As regards adhering to EV, do you understand what EV means? Its the expected value of an action long term if you were in the exact same situation. It is informed by your reads on opponents range and tendencies, its not a constant if I have AJ on this board I do this. So you have to adhere to it if you are trying to make money, and yes you use all info at your disposal including live tells etc
Ok back to some rigid stuff:
I think weak lead with a strong hand is good when
(a) opponent is strong but may flat a big vbet AND the raise commits him or at least gives us a bigger pot than when we lead big
(b) it induces a bluff from hands that fold to a bigvbet
In this case his raise only brings the pot to the size of 1 big bet, and I would think usually a player is more likely to raise this than call a lead/3bet. It also avoids the possibility he flats your tiny bet. If this is not the case then I suppose its ok. Once he raises you I still think if he convinces himself to call a tiny 3bet he'll prob call a shove
I dont think my post could have been more diplomatic. Tired of the brick wall, enjoy.