Play on all streets.....40nl....

DOHHHHHHH

1) Just couldn't see how I could fold at any stage here with his sizing.......

Which street do you fold?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
lillies61	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£37.24
Coughlin90	Big blind		£0.40	£0.60	£34.46
	Your hole cards	J J
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£1.60	£2.20	£41.60
jesusdog22	Fold
igor1966	Fold
THE_JOK438	Fold
lillies61	Raise		£3.80	£6.00	£33.44
Coughlin90	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£2.40	£8.40	£39.20
Flop
		6 8 10
lillies61	Bet		£4.20	£12.60	£29.24
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£4.20	£16.80	£35.00
Turn
		2
lillies61	Bet		£8.40	£25.20	£20.84
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£8.40	£33.60	£26.60
River
		9
lillies61	All-in		£20.84	£54.44	£0.00
DOHHHHHHH

Dudeskin8

Probably require reads here.

3betting range ?

Flop looks cbetty.

Turn halfpot again, can't really call here then fold river imo.

River god knows what you beat, QQ/KK/AA without a club going crazy ?

I'd probably shove turn.

DOHHHHHHH

Its hard for me to give reads coz I can never remember, but probably a tight c betting range of JJ+ AQs+.....maybe more like QQ/KK/AA/AK, lol, that's pretty standard for these guys.

He just wouldn't let me fold, then the turn gave me a draw, then the river got me there ffs nh gg gtfo aghhhhh

donkeyplop

The min re raise pre stinks of kk or aa!

I guess he had either a or k of clubs then!

EDIT: Looking again it's not a min re raise but pretty close;)

AMYBR

in all honesty the bet sizing at turn would have me really woried.  He has no intention of slowing down and I'd be questioning why that is.

I think I likely get out of way at turn to a decent player, as I'm not going to know where I am if club comes up, plus I hate J's here following pre 4bet and these seemingly transparent value sizings

grantorino

I actually would fold this pre against some reg villains, but I normally flat

Fold turn your draw is often dominated and your pair is often dominated sometimes both 

Fold river

pod1

half pot bets is da nutz!! is it weak is it strong??  a re raise after the flop for about 10/12 quid and i think you would have your answer. but thats me.

AyrGraeme

Milky Milky Milky - looks like AK clubs or AA with a club

Think I fold the turn but on a bad day I could call the turn and the river - don't think I'm beating much except someone who spews chips like Mac77

grantorino

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl....:

half pot bets is da nutz!! is it weak is it strong??  a re raise after the flop for about 10/12 quid and i think you would have your answer. but thats me.
Posted by pod1

yeah but it would probably be the wrong answer

TommyD

I'm fine with your play up to the turn.  I think this is where we have to decide if we're all in or all out.  I think you can fold to a half pot bet here as he seems to be building to a river shove.  Yes you have a draw but is it good?  Without reads I'm probably mucking turn but the last thing I'm doing is calling.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl....:

I'm fine with your play up to the turn.  I think this is where we have to decide if we're all in or all out.  I think you can fold to a half pot bet here as he seems to be building to a river shove.  Yes you have a draw but is it good?  Without reads I'm probably mucking turn but the last thing I'm doing is calling.
Posted by TommyD

Why do you think shoving turn is better than calling? I know you are saying you prefer a fold

pod1

can i ask why it would be wrong grantorino (im sure it is). my thinking is with that size bet (10/12) surely we find out if we are way ahead or way behind, before we get to turn and river. a call or reraise at that point would see me shut down, and it may well get ak to fold! like i say would be nice if you could tell me where my thinking is going wrong on this hand, cheers phil

grantorino

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl....:

can i ask why it would be wrong grantorino (im sure it is). my thinking is with that size bet (10/12) surely we find out if we are way ahead or way behind, before we get to turn and river. a call or reraise at that point would see me shut down, and it may well get ak to fold! like i say would be nice if you could tell me where my thinking is going wrong on this hand, cheers phil
Posted by pod1

well if we raise flop, nothing better folds, so its not good as a bluff.
Worse hands may shove, draws with overcards especially (I know we are flipping but we make a mistake if we fold)

If he folds we were ahead so we dont want him to fold. If he calls raises we are assuming we are beat so we dont want him to call or raise. This is why raising for info is usually bad. That said I agree its a tough spot, and I suppose you can maybe justify it if you think it stops you making bigger mistakes later in hand. However this is a pretty good flop for us and we still dont like it, which is why I would consider folding pre

Batkin88

Nothing worse than calling away your stack i would personally shove turn knowing i have outs but thats cz i play omaha lol prob fold is the best option here your rarely ahead

TommyD

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl....:

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl.... : Why do you think shoving turn is better than calling? I know you are saying you prefer a fold
Posted by grantorino

It's just that calling achieves so little.  By shoving the turn we're getting value from/protection against big bare club hands.  It also turns our hand into a semi bluff with the J club draw.  We're readless so I can't say exactly what I expect his 3bet OOP range to throw up here.  Some players will see us for a flush immediately and will muck no club over pairs  (I can think of one reg who would take this line with non club aces and muck to a shove).  Some even tighter players are mucking QQ with the Q clubs to a shove here.

How does calling really help us?  With the villains line we hate every river card bar one of two jacks (and even then we're not 100% sure we're good).  The villains bet sizing has been leading to a river shove.  If the river comes a club the villain can shove for value or turn their hand into a bluff and shove the rep the A clubs as with our line the A clubs turns up in AT only and even that should be shoving the turn.  A non club baby card or board pair comes off and the villain can shove for value and can we really call? 

In short if we call on the turn we are putting dead money in the pot to c/f most river cards to a shove.  I don't think with the way the villain is playing they are giving us a free showdown with any rivercard so calling the turn to fold on the river is just burning money.  I'd rather take the equity that is in a shove on the turn when I can rep something or get value out of an admittedly narrow range that is there which may call.  I know we're getting snapped off by nightmare situations like AcAx or KcKx and losing more than by calling turn and folding river and that's why I prefer the fold readless.  But there a little more value to be gained by shoving the turn than by calling to fold the river.

DOHHHHHHH

I don't like shoving the turn, I don't think I've got any fold equity and I'm behind alot of the time. He probably would check most rivers with alot of his range, like QQ/KK/AA, unless he makes the flush, and even then he might c/c without the nuts. I can then check behind or make a thin v bet myself if I make a flush.....

Shoving my stack in on the turn just hands him my stack when I'm beat, which is most of the time - and kills the hand when I'm ahead. 

Which obv begs the question, why didn't I fold? - and there lies my mistake in the hand. I should definitely fold to his 2nd barrell on the turn.

I called the river.

He had QQ with a green Queen. 

grantorino

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl....:

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl.... : It's just that calling achieves so little.  By shoving the turn we're getting value from/protection against big bare club hands.  It also turns our hand into a semi bluff with the J club draw.  We're readless so I can't say exactly what I expect his 3bet OOP range to throw up here.  Some players will see us for a flush immediately and will muck no club over pairs  (I can think of one reg who would take this line with non club aces and muck to a shove).  Some even tighter players are mucking QQ with the Q clubs to a shove here. How does calling really help us?  With the villains line we hate every river card bar one of two jacks (and even then we're not 100% sure we're good).  The villains bet sizing has been leading to a river shove.  If the river comes a club the villain can shove for value or turn their hand into a bluff and shove the rep the A clubs as with our line the A clubs turns up in AT only and even that should be shoving the turn.  A non club baby card or board pair comes off and the villain can shove for value and can we really call?  In short if we call on the turn we are putting dead money in the pot to c/f most river cards to a shove.  I don't think with the way the villain is playing they are giving us a free showdown with any rivercard so calling the turn to fold on the river is just burning money.  I'd rather take the equity that is in a shove on the turn when I can rep something or get value out of an admittedly narrow range that is there which may call.  I know we're getting snapped off by nightmare situations like AcAx or KcKx and losing more than by calling turn and folding river and that's why I prefer the fold readless.  But there a little more value to be gained by shoving the turn than by calling to fold the river.
Posted by TommyD

I dont think shoving folds out better hands in general, maybe QQ no club folds, but I dont think people will fold better enough. We might get a call out of something like AcKx or something, maybe not though

If we flat the turn, I think we have to grit our teeth and call nearly all non club rivers, but I agree folding turn  best

ACEGOONER

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl....:

Milky Milky Milky - looks like AK clubs or AA with a club Think I fold the turn but on a bad day I could call the turn and the river - don't think I'm beating much except someone who spews chips like Mac77
Posted by AyrGraeme

LMAO how are you graeme. So you've come across this colourful character too!

I wonder if you've had the poker lesson yet.

AyrGraeme

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl....:

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl.... : LMAO how are you graeme. So you've come across this colourful character too! I wonder if you've had the poker lesson yet.
Posted by ACEGOONER

I'm fine bud how's the cash game coming along - he is a nasty chap - always abusing folk at the table - I was involved in a lengthy "discussion" with him prior to posting this so couldn't resist a wee dig

bandini

All-in pre.

ACEGOONER

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl....:

In Response to Re: Play on all streets.....40nl.... : I'm fine bud how's the cash game coming along - he is a nasty chap - always abusing folk at the table - I was involved in a lengthy "discussion" with him prior to posting this so couldn't resist a wee dig
Posted by AyrGraeme

Hi Graham

Ive sort of left playing cash for the last few days and gone back to sit and gos. Been playing loads of turbo dyms they are serious fun and if you know what your doing can be profitable. Im going to try and play 1000 over the next few weeks and then decide if this is going to be my core game going forward.

When I did play cash a few days back I managed a few double ups at NL100, but I dont think my game is solid enough to play this level for a prolonged period. So I was happy to take the profits and now and focus on the turbo DYMs. They are very addictive!