effective nuts vs donk player sat deep, how do you price re raise?

AMYBR

50/£1 cash, been playing for a good 5 hours with same players, plenty of money on table.  I was a bit short so only sat with £100 but built to £340.  Really spewy play in the main.  No room to bluff, 3 bet or cold 4 bet as plyters will call regardless.  Just looking for good spots to push money across the line premium pre, extracting value when connecting post.

Alot of funky hands throughout evening.  Get dwn to 3 handed play, last 2 or so orbits.

Stupid reason I know, but 4's have been jumping out of deck, I limp with 4cJc on button 3 handed, standard 3way raise has become £2.50 so am getting to see a super cheap flop regardless, unless someone has something special.  I'm sat with £340, both opponents have me covered.  After limpage and raise calls:

pot stands @£ 7.50 3 way, 446 flop, I'm on the button.  Pretty solid TAG checks SB, super spewy guy opens for pot.  I am the tightest of the three, so raising here is very bad, so I flat SB calls.

£22.5 at turn 446 2 The board is slightly more co ordinated than I'd like, am slightly worried about calling off 2 more bets vs a straight, but essentialy it wont matter untill the river.  Opponent bets pot again, I call quick, trying to look like I'm drawing.

£67.5 @ turn 446  2  J.  Again opponent opens for a near pot bet, £50 ish.  I think super slow here.  I dont think he'll call all in, but he may have a better 4, that just got beat or a straight that has been beat in a way he wont see vs my supposed range.

I know pre flop is bad, but remembering, last 6 or so hands, all sat deep 3 handed, worth getting in there.

So £67 in pot, we have effective nuts vs spewbox, image being mostly solid (however making some solid hero calls and showing bluffs throughout evening), opponent betting a solid £50, we have £50 plus £280 - £290 back being covered, opponent will massively likey fold to a jam:

What size are we looking to get called on river IP?

(not a brag post, was truly flummaxed as knew he'd fold to a jam vs me, but once he bets £50, he surely calls a healthy slice of his stack with 7's and better, a weak 6 (spewbox) or some bizarre straight.  Remember, not a great player, just some guy who struggles to release).

Prop60

In Response to effective nuts vs donk player sat deep, how do you price re raise?:

This really made my head hurt. Why dont you put him on 66? He seems to be repping strength or am I missing something through tiredness here?

2pr I reckon he's folding to anything other than a min-raise.

22 He'll call just about anything.

Straight too wierd to contemplate. If he's just decided to 3 barrel bluff your apparent draw, he'll fold to any raise.

Way too difficult to call this one even with your reads.

Hope he had the inferior house and you stacked him.

AMYBR

Your only missing the fact that I play with super bad donks bud.  Your reaching to far here.  Best hand he is ever going to show up with is a beat 4.

For what its worth he had 6 10 and still called my raise.

I tanked for ages to construct it, just curious as to what you guys figured a good size is.

As said, pure unthinking spewbox donk, thanks for allowing me to clarify tho Prop lol

grantorino

Who raised pre? Has tag folded? Pot looks wrong on turn if tag called flop.

I'm not sure you cant raise this flop from what you say about villain, he's never folding 77-TT and prob not folding a 6 or 35. I know you have a tight image but spewy guys love to call and love to think people are always bluffing on paired boards. I see reasons to flat also, but I certainly would consider raising

Turn flatting prob best

On river I doubt he folds any 4x, straight or boat to a shove, but from description given he prob doesnt play those hands so fast, and he will shove over a raise anyway. I prob make it £135 and obv call it off

AMYBR

In Response to Re: effective nuts vs donk player sat deep, how do you price re raise?:

Who raised pre? Has tag folded? TAG and yes, he folded behind me on flop, he doesnt have to have any kind of hand here as we were all playing junk at this point looking to connect and take a pot worth having on the wind down. Pot looks wrong on turn if tag called flop. I'm not sure you cant raise this flop from what you say about villain, he's never folding 77-TT and prob not folding a 6 or 35. I know you have a tight image but spewy guys love to call and love to think people are always bluffing on paired boards. Yeah you have a point here.  He has certainly called with worse off scary flops in past.  I see reasons to flat also, but I certainly would consider raising Turn flatting prob best On river I doubt he folds any 4x, straight or boat to a shove, but from description given he prob doesnt play those hands so fast, and he will shove over a raise anyway. I prob make it £135 and obv call it off.  Had to really think about this one on river.  Figured on this occassion vs this player he may percieve the tank as weak, believing I was only attempting hero call with A high, then reverted to WIDR (when in doubt raise) as a plan B.  I felt he didnt have any kind of hand at all, but was really tempted to jam to see if he'd call weak in future here.  But took the safe option of £150 total, which he called pretty quick saying "show me your 4 then".  I hadnt played that well last, maybe a beer to many, gave away too much overall
Posted by grantorino

5toneFace

In Response to Re: effective nuts vs donk player sat deep, how do you price re raise?:

Your only missing the fact that I play with super bad donks bud.  Your reaching to far here.  Best hand he is ever going to show up with is a beat 4. For what its worth he had 6 10 and still called my raise. I tanked for ages to construct it, just curious as to what you guys figured a good size is. As said, pure unthinking spewbox donk, thanks for allowing me to clarify tho Prop lol
Posted by AMYBR

If this is true you should be looking at raising the flop or turn so you can get all their money by the river. Super bad players dont even consider what you could have. They only play their cards. 

and fwiw, bad players can hit good hands too. You cant ever rule out 66 or JJ. But cause hes bad, he calls with so many hands that you beat, thats why you raise.

AMYBR

Your both right on first part, he definately would have called a raise on flop or turn.  However I'm not sure if he continues to lead if I raise flop or turn, making it impossible to make a £150 VB on river.

On second part I have to disagree, but generally speaking again your right.  This is another guy I've seen at the table alot, knowing his game and spew tendancies pretty well.  Based on all the info at hand there was no danger here,  Not playing the hand blind online, [laying it with solid reads and knowledge of opponent.

5toneFace

In Response to Re: effective nuts vs donk player sat deep, how do you price re raise?:

Your both right on first part, he definately would have called a raise on flop or turn.  However I'm not sure if he continues to lead if I raise flop or turn, making it impossible to make a £150 VB on river. On second part I have to disagree, but generally speaking again your right.  This is another guy I've seen at the table alot, knowing his game and spew tendancies pretty well.  Based on all the info at hand there was no danger here,  Not playing the hand blind online, [laying it with solid reads and knowledge of opponent.
Posted by AMYBR

lol, why do u need him to lead the turn and river? You havent made a £150 VB anyway. 

Dont really understand what your disagreeing on. And were not playing it blind, online. Were playing with your solid reads and knowledge of opponent. If we was playing it b;ind online we would play it different. But cause we know the player isnt very good, we can reraise earlier in the hand, cause we know hes going to call with worse hands then ours

grantorino

he prob wont keep leading the thing with raising the flop is you can take the lead on the turn with the pot twice the size, so you can get much more money into the pot, without him having to be quite spewy enough to call a river raise with 6 no kicker, also turn and river may slow him down sometimes. To be fair though its still going to be hard get all his stack

5toneFace

In Response to Re: effective nuts vs donk player sat deep, how do you price re raise?:

he prob wont keep leading the thing with raising the flop is you can take the lead on the turn with the pot twice the size, so you can get much more money into the pot, without him having to be quite spewy enough to call a river raise with 6 no kicker, also turn and river may slow him down sometimes. To be fair though its still going to be hard get all his stack
Posted by grantorino

Yeah hard to get his whole stack as were so deep. Its about getting max value. By taking the lead ourself we can get 200BBa+ i reckon

And fwiw I actually think you got max value vs his hand. But if he had better hands we get more by reraising earlier.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: effective nuts vs donk player sat deep, how do you price re raise?:

In Response to Re: effective nuts vs donk player sat deep, how do you price re raise? : Yeah hard to get his whole stack as were so deep. Its about getting max value. By taking the lead ourself we can get 200BBa+ i reckon And fwiw I actually think you got max value vs his hand. But if he had better hands we get more by reraising earlier.
Posted by 5toneFace

If you look back to OP I said opponent was going to be very weak here, the only tricky part of hand being river bet sizing.  We can talk about raising flop turn here, which would be ok, but I firmly feel it shuts down action on later streets on this occassion.

I'm pretty sure oponent calls a raise on flop, but then will c/f turn or river.  Am more than happy to let him keep firing, obviously if he doesnt at turn I bet somewhere in region of two thirds pot.

I dont VB £150 stoneface?  Seems to me like I did on river when he opens 3rd street for pot size bet.  We are simply betting for value against a spewbox that finds it hard to release a very weak hand, being inclined to call if feels priced in.  We arent talking about a solid thinking player.

If I felt opponent had any type of hand that could redraw or take any real heat I obviously inflate pot early, but here truly feel like playing possum on button is best way forward.  Again, it was river bet sizing that was tricky.

Important to remeber opponent is super weak here.

5toneFace

ok fair enough, Id have played the hand different. The thing with poker is theres not always 1 best way to play a certain hand. I think this is a classic example of that. But as i said I think you get max value out of the hand so well played. Dont think you can get any more on the river. Reraising to 150 is perfect.