V table fish do you just fold for better spot?

mattless

Seen villian re load twice in about 20 minutes my money above buy in is from him. He limps into every pot, calls my and others raises and generally over values all his hands.

So I decide to call from co this time rather than raise as villian will likely call raise anyway and I might as well see cheap flop , but then with up and down, flush and str flush draw I am likely to be at least 50% if he has top pair, 2 pair or set, it might also be a bluff and my 7 & 8 might be good even. 

Against halfway decent player I would nearly always play this way. My question though is having seen his tendencies should I still play as I did or should I be able to find better spots where I am more certain to win.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
loki1	Sit out
THEKOP235	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£13.38
DirtyDolla	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£31.55
	Your hole cards	8 7
x	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£18.10
mattless	Call		£0.20	£0.70	£41.79
wilf1955	Fold
THEKOP235	Call		£0.10	£0.80	£13.28
DirtyDolla	Check
Flop
		3 9 6
THEKOP235	Check
DirtyDolla	Check
x	Bet		£1.80	£2.60	£16.30
mattless	Raise		£5.10	£7.70	£36.69
THEKOP235	Fold
DirtyDolla	Fold
x	All-in		£16.30	£24.00	£0.00
mattless	Call		£13.00	£37.00	£23.69
x	Show	9 10
mattless	Show	8 7
Turn
		4
River
		J
x	Win	Pair of 9s	£35.20		£35.20

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rentisdue

Played it fine imo. What better spot would you want ?  MASSIVE HAND

percival09

this is standard post flop, against top pair you're a pretty good fave, decision is made easy because of yours and villains stacks

pre i don't like the limp, either raise or fold, i'd probz fold with the reads you have tbh

mattless

In Response to Re: V table fish do you just fold for better spot?:

Played it fine imo. What better spot would you want ?  MASSIVE HAND
Posted by rentisdue

Generally happy with way I played it (post flop anyway), would do the same against majority of players, but in this kind of situation v very spewy player is it worth being involved in hands like this with not much more than 50% equity or should you always play similarly as in long run it is marginally +ev.................

LOL_RAISE

i think vs a very bad player i would probably just call flop and turn. yes getting it in is +Ev but that still doesnt mean it is the correct decision to make

Dudeskin8

Don't limp pre, raise or fold.

Flop is massive, best to get it in when you have the most equity.

jugglegeek

By assessing the flop it is very likely he has not got two hearts in his hand that beat your flush draw. The top two cards are both hearts so unless he is doing this with Ah3h (very unlikely even for a total donk) your flush will be good if you get there. Most likely he will have top pair, two pair or a set. Any of which you are beating if you make the straight, or the flush. So you must now consider your outs:

9 hearts left in the deck, plus 3 tens and 3 fives. 15 outs with two cards to come so you multiply by 4 to get a rough idea of your chances. 15 x 4 = 60%.

The only time you are behind is if he has a set and even then its only 60/40 in favour of the set (the board could pair to give him the boat)

It's a marginal spot but you have a slightly possitive expected value by getting it in on the flop. Therefore over time you will come out on top in these situations.

On a side note it does illustrate the importance of bankroll managment. You should be happy to get your money in here knowing that almost half the time you will loose your buy-in - around 9 times out of 20 on average. If you are playing with all of your bankroll at the table you are flipping a coin for you whole roll, if you have 5% of your bankroll on the table you are making a +ev decision.

Hope that helps.

pr1nnyraid

i think what op is saying is..

"should i just call as i can probly get it in anyway if i hit the turn or river"

i think you should just call the flop as he will be barreling with most his bluffs and his made hands, so you can just call to see a turn then when he barrels again you either call again if you miss or raise if you have hit.

this is one of the only times i recomend taking this line, against a non thinking, aggro player on tilt.

or another school of thought (presuming he will reload)
The metagame developed by getting it all in on the flop and winning will give you a big edge in the hands to come when he reloads and tries to 'bust you' cos he hates you now..

F_Ivanovic

His range for donking this big is likely 9x, 2 pair/set, overpair and flush draws. Unless you've seen him completely bluffing which you haven't said? Not sure if he does this with worse than 9x either.

Basically I think raising has no fold equity. You've put 20p into the pot and against this range you are probably around 50%... so you're marginally ev to play it this way. But calling and hoping to hit is definitely more ev IMO.

DOHHHHHHH

Any advice other than just getting it in is mind bogoggling for meeeeeee

ALL 

MONEY

IN 

MIDDLE

A

S

A

P

Deadluck

i dont mind calling the flop and turn and getting it in on a later street

i also dont mind raising.

the fact is you've flopped a monster draw and you're never folding.

grantorino

oesfd is not a monster when you have no fe. It will be slightly +EV to shove. Probably more +EV to call until you hit against this guy as he will pay you off anyway

DOHHHHHHH

The villain must fold SOME hands that we can't beat??????????????

grantorino

I dont see him folding much when he leads for 2.25Xpot (close to never)

Deadluck

like i say i still dont mind a raise or call here on the flop, and raising a scare card or if you hit on the turn.

the biggest mistake you've made is limping pre. Raise or fold!

jugglegeek

Thanks to this hand analysis I now think that I understand the concept of fold equity :-) I'll check.

Basically against a tight player the shove is the right move because you are 50:50 if he calls and has a made hand but the chance that he might fold one pair pushes the expected value up some more.

It is the % chance that he might fold that is your fold equity. So say you estimate he folds 20% of the time (which this guy diffinatly does not) then:

20% of the time you win £2.40
40% of the time you win £18.70
40% of the time you loose £18.30.

I'm beginning to agree with the others, if you are certain that the guy will call even if the 10h falls and you shove all in on the river, then calling is a better move. As if you miss then you can just fold right.