Well I did shove, but is this not turning my hand face up? Does a flat not represent bigger than I have with the option to get out if they shove the turn? I'd like someone to put forward an argument for a fold but I really can't find a fold here, we're just too big against the preflop calling range. I'll name his hand later on. Posted by TommyD
Tommy i think IMO that flatting would be wrong against most opponents. I believe against very good players you could flat to do your turn move on any turn. Problem beng against the average player your flat lets yor hand out of the bag IMO />
We have good equity in the hand unless he has a certain combination of hands. Are we really that worried of the straight flush possiblites that folding is possible? I certainly wouldnt be.
FWIW im with the first few guys and my stack is in the middle and im flipping on the most part.
i do understand why going all in is a good option here, but i dont understand why its the best option. yes you got outs and a lot of them, but you got 20k behind ,40 bb. why risk a tourny on a draw? don , i still cant see how flatting is letting his hand out the bag? your last line sums up the problem for me pushing! flipping with 40 bb just doesnt make sense in a tourny!
i don't think you can really fold here i been thinking for a little while a reason to fold but cant find one just because 1) if he flops the straight you have the redraw to a bigger straight if he flops a flush you have the redraw to the Ahigh flush he himself could have Kx with the K of diamonds, TT with the T of diamonds giving him the OESD and OESFD, but either way i think im just getting it in for the simple fact you still have outs if he has flopped something, flatting could = massive strength ie flopping the flush or the obvious chasing the draw i dont really think it puts your hand face up, i don't really mind a flat if you have plan for the turn/river
i'll stop now before it turns into a book.... but i think the shove is fine mate seeing as you still have 4 T's 8 diamonds potentially as well as the 3 A's 3 Ks if they are live so you are on a 18 outer
Simply put - I play to win, so I want to take the value on offer here. Im going to be in worse spots than this later, so ill take my chances when i get them.
yes jim , you will be in worse spots thats for sure but can you say your not going to be in better spots. like i say your flippin at 40 bb! ps delaney could some of them outs improve villians hand? im not to clever at reverse implied odds but im sure on that board they might
Thanks for the input guys. I think raising/getting it in is the best move. My argument for flatting would be to put a bit of fear into the villain that we have the made flush already in order to try and get the river for free. I'm not totally convinced by this argument, guess that's why I shoved. In answer to YB, I do raise with the nuts and the other hands you mention, but I'm doing this as I am the kind of player to bet the draw as well as disguising the nuts when I have it.
Ok, the results. I shove, they snap it off with top set (yes they had pocket Queens, didn't see that coming either).
Tommy, I dont think flatting looks stronger for the sim[ple reason most people raise their strong hands on this board
You mention you cant fold because of his preflop range, but its the preflop range that donks pot on a very scary board that we are dealing with, I would imagine that narrows his range a lot
If you want a reason to fold, I would go with we have a decent stack, you prob have a decent edge over field and this is going to be a pretty small +EV spot due to lack of fe and dead money in pot. I dont hate a fold at all, because when guys donk strong at this board they nearly always have some of your outs and/or redraws
Dont mind a jam, but I dont mind a flat, getting to turn pretty cheap, potentially getting to river for free when missing.
I'm happy enough getting it in on flop, but with stacks and 30+ bigs behind I dont think we HAVE to get it in.
Like either line. Only thing that gives me pause is if we do jam we have no room to navigate on streets, the jam pretty much defines your hand also, plus you hold the nut blocker
I've changed my mind I think you can flat here ) My first thinking was to shove, but also with the lead being pot you know he ain't folding, so like Pod says your flipping 40 bb's. You call and maybe see a free river or you have to fold to another pot bet lead - and you still have 34 bb's, playable enough to find a better percentage spot - you hit and your one happy man
So I suppose if you think he is not folding then maybe you should not play these very aggro. <20bb's it's a snap shove -- greater then you can flat - i know 200bb's cash game I'm flatting so......
all bow to the superior poker knowledge lol ps just waitng for dude, percival and garantorino to realise there mistake and i can die a happy man :-) Posted by pod1
rancid theres a big difference between 40 BB deep and 200BB deep. Even then because nearly all our outs are scarecards for villain Id d be dubious about flatting, + we have much more fe 200BB deep
Pod you are the man, but still not sure how you intend getting paid when you flat
rancid theres a big difference between 40 BB deep and 200BB deep. Even then because nearly all our outs are scarecards for villain Id d be dubious about flatting, + we have much more fe 200BB deep Pod you are the man, but still not sure how you intend getting paid when you flat Posted by grantorino
but still not sure how you intend getting paid when you flat yeah this is the main issue with flatting
can't say flatting here would be bad, can't say shoving would be bad considering the fact that I don't think he is going to fold to a shove then a flat is good if i am in this spot with <20 I am shoving regardless - if we can make the call and still have a playable stack then it's worth calling - pot is big enough in relation to our stack i think to win
you can still value bet the turn/river if and when you hit and if he has hit hard he gonna call. but my main point is your still gonna win something and still able to be in the tourny rather than put it all on the line with a draw when your 40 bb deep
Comments
We have good equity in the hand unless he has a certain combination of hands. Are we really that worried of the straight flush possiblites that folding is possible? I certainly wouldnt be.
FWIW im with the first few guys and my stack is in the middle and im flipping on the most part.
i'll stop now before it turns into a book.... but i think the shove is fine mate seeing as you still have 4 T's 8 diamonds potentially as well as the 3 A's 3 Ks if they are live so you are on a 18 outer
Simply put - I play to win, so I want to take the value on offer here. Im going to be in worse spots than this later, so ill take my chances when i get them.
Ok, the results. I shove, they snap it off with top set (yes they had pocket Queens, didn't see that coming either).
Turn pairs the board, gg.
Thanks again for the input guys.
You mention you cant fold because of his preflop range, but its the preflop range that donks pot on a very scary board that we are dealing with, I would imagine that narrows his range a lot
If you want a reason to fold, I would go with we have a decent stack, you prob have a decent edge over field and this is going to be a pretty small +EV spot due to lack of fe and dead money in pot. I dont hate a fold at all, because when guys donk strong at this board they nearly always have some of your outs and/or redraws
Dont mind a jam, but I dont mind a flat, getting to turn pretty cheap, potentially getting to river for free when missing.
I'm happy enough getting it in on flop, but with stacks and 30+ bigs behind I dont think we HAVE to get it in.
Like either line. Only thing that gives me pause is if we do jam we have no room to navigate on streets, the jam pretty much defines your hand also, plus you hold the nut blocker
My first thinking was to shove, but also with the lead being pot you know he ain't folding, so like Pod says your flipping 40 bb's. You call and maybe see a free river or you have to fold to another pot bet lead - and you still have 34 bb's, playable enough to find a better percentage spot - you hit and your one happy man
So I suppose if you think he is not folding then maybe you should not play these very aggro.
<20bb's it's a snap shove -- greater then you can flat - i know 200bb's cash game I'm flatting so......
) Hail the Pod
Pod you are the man, but still not sure how you intend getting paid when you flat
yeah this is the main issue with flatting
can't say flatting here would be bad, can't say shoving would be bad
considering the fact that I don't think he is going to fold to a shove then a flat is good
if i am in this spot with <20 I am shoving regardless - if we can make the call and still have a playable stack then it's worth calling - pot is big enough in relation to our stack i think to win