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a serious and common problem

The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
edited August 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Over the last few weeks ive came to terms that making profits just isnt as easy as id like tbh. However i know if im ever to make profits consistantly i need to get away from tournaments and into the cash world.

There comes one of the most common problems for an MTT player. MTT variance is just high. Margins of winning and comming miles down the field now are just so small its impossible to consistanly win.

So my question, and i know ive asked this countless times before but i just cant seem to correct the issue. I cant change the midset to that required of cash.

The biggest issue i find. Is the inability to seperate myself from the differance between money and chips. People always tell me look at it as BBs lost rather than £'s lost. This is just something i cant quite figure out how to do. Im not at a loss to explain where i go from here as quite simply, i cant keep grinding the tournaments i am (500-70000 runners) because profits just arent there. With my weakness for cash i cant make profit as one losing hand leads to tilt because i think, oh god dammit i could have bought milk with that £2.
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Comments

  • LLCooLDLLCooLD Member Posts: 78
    edited August 2011
    Im the same as you, but I find vash very boring (except rush poker - which we all know is dead now on FTP). I also dont like cash cos I cant make the transition from raising 2.5BB in a tournament to raising 5+ BB in a cash game?!. I end up raising 3BB and wonder why I get 6 callers lol. 

    The thing about tournaments is, it only takes ONE tournament to make your career/life/year etc, I know guys who are horrendous players who have taken down $5000 wins on $5 crapshoots on stars etc. You're like, WTF, how did YOU win that?! 
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2011
    In Response to a serious and common problem:
    Over the last few weeks ive came to terms that making profits just isnt as easy as id like tbh. However i know if im ever to make profits consistantly i need to get away from tournaments and into the cash world. There comes one of the most common problems for an MTT player. MTT variance is just high. Margins of winning and comming miles down the field now are just so small its impossible to consistanly win. So my question, and i know ive asked this countless times before but i just cant seem to correct the issue. I cant change the midset to that required of cash. The biggest issue i find. Is the inability to seperate myself from the differance between money and chips. People always tell me look at it as BBs lost rather than £'s lost. This is just something i cant quite figure out how to do. Im not at a loss to explain where i go from here as quite simply, i cant keep grinding the tournaments i am (500-70000 runners) because profits just arent there. With my weakness for cash i cant make profit as one losing hand leads to tilt because i think, oh god dammit i could have bought milk with that £2.
    Posted by The_Don90
    Quality again, mon the Don :D

    What about when you enter a 5,000 runner tournament for $4 and don't cash?

    Isn't it the same thing?

    Its the old, "if you can't afford to lose the money you shouldn't be playing with it" line.
  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited August 2011
    Have to agree with Dohh there, if you're relating losses to real world purchases than every time you make a big bet you'll be a nervous wreck hoping it gets through and when you get it in on the flop set vs FD and they hit it'll mean too much when in reality that's just standard.

    On the actual cash simply just play like a robot and you should be ok, here's my game once again for reference, and it does work as I'm playing NL8 now. Granted it's not LOLUFOLD territory yet but it's better than losing money.

    Raise any position - 22+/QJs/KJ+/A10+/5x - UTG(I never like opening 4x UTG as have this fear of multi callers lol), 4x everywhere else +1 for every limper but more with BIG hands AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK.

    3bet - AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK any position and at least triple their bet or just type a big number lol.

    Flat raises - KQ/AJ/22-10's (maybe tight leaving out A10 but I personally don't like calling unless minraise, if it's suited maybe different, also 10's could be 3bet against short stacks who stack light)

    NEVER OPEN LIMP, sometimes it can be ok to say limp after 2/3 callers with small pairs as likely to be multiway and that's good with sets.

    On flop when hit TP/set/2 pair/overpair etc bet very strong at least 75%, NEVER CHECK RAISE. Even if you hit top set Aces on A72 board with two clubs it's still vunerable and even rainbow if you don't bet you don't win they call call down with anything most the time.

    Turn bet again if think have best hand but if strong raise comes in be prepared to fold on dangerous boards if you have just overpair or TP but also some opponants can stack light so need to know these guys.

    River if know have best hand and pot is small try a trcik Dohh taught me and over bet pot massive say 30p in pot bet 90p, if they have anything they'll call. If pot big say £3 bet pot or close to shove.

    Big thing though is DON'T TILT, I personally have started doing something after playing for a while now and that is litually playing with ZERO emotion, whenever I lose to badbeat I just insta reload and play next hand but even if I win big hand like double up I just stay still don't celebrate or anything, take a breath than play next hand. It's a little strange but is really helpful as feeling big highs and lows is not good so treating it all as standard and not making a big thing out of any situation will help you stay in the zone.

    Good luck mate, all the best.

    Carl.
  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2011
    Btw, if you need anymore motivation to grind nl4, check my thread in GPC about poker points.

    You can now make points at nl4 at the same rate as nl50, and you can make some massive rakeback relative to your bankroll....

    Like you could tripple a 20xbi nl4 roll with moderate grinding playing nl4, just from rakeback.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2011
    In Response to a serious and common problem:
    Over the last few weeks ive came to terms that making profits just isnt as easy as id like tbh. However i know if im ever to make profits consistantly i need to get away from tournaments and into the cash world. There comes one of the most common problems for an MTT player. MTT variance is just high. Margins of winning and comming miles down the field now are just so small its impossible to consistanly win. So my question, and i know ive asked this countless times before but i just cant seem to correct the issue. I cant change the midset to that required of cash. The biggest issue i find. Is the inability to seperate myself from the differance between money and chips. People always tell me look at it as BBs lost rather than £'s lost. This is just something i cant quite figure out how to do. Im not at a loss to explain where i go from here as quite simply, i cant keep grinding the tournaments i am (500-70000 runners) because profits just arent there. With my weakness for cash i cant make profit as one losing hand leads to tilt because i think, oh god dammit i could have bought milk with that £2.
    Posted by The_Don90
    I would think its possible to make a consistent profit from mtts though I've never tried so not really sure. Variance would be very high, and you would prob need to play a pretty big volume to avoid very long spells between cashes. On the other hand there seems to be a huge amount of dead money in low stakes mtts so they should be very profitable long term

    Im not sure if your comment about buying milk is serious, if it is stop playing no ifs no buts. You do need to think of losses in BBs, being properly rolled certainly helps. If you cant put in a 25BI+ roll for 4NL play tiny stakes SNGs somewhere until you grind up a roll. People will say you can do it with 10BI, but this is not the way for you to go if losing money is tilting you as a bad run could easily bust you and that will led to more tilt even if you redeposit. Something you can do that might help, is to maybe start standing from a table when you make a certain amount, a buy in  maybe (less if you want), and lock that profit in. There are good reasons why people advise against this, but I think when you are low in confidence (which it seems you are to me from cash hands you have posted lately) and seem like losing big pots tilt you that this might be a good idea short term.

    Also you say losing £2 tilts you, but you dont tilt losing tourneys? If losing £2 affects you that much you are not going to play optimally around bubble, in money in Mtts.  Also some of your posts here are from sats, which I doubt is what you should be doing if you are worried about losing £2. I may be wrong, and this may be harsh on you, but it looks a little like you are hoping for 1 big score to solve all your problems with tilt, roll etc. It may happen it may not but it doesnt seem like a good way to try make yourself a more profitable player to me. Take shots, dont rely on them

    Lastly, have you thought of playing SNGs as an alternative? Wont be as swingy as mtts, low stakes ones are very beatable and should be a good way to build a roll. I had a very decent winrate playing  $10 6 seater sngs on another site, that was without doing any specific study on sngs and icm etc and I knew a lot less about poker than I do now. Low stakes DYMs are prob good too, although playing these would drive me insane

    I've prob made some assumptions there that may not be valid, apologies if so Don, hope this might help a bit though
  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited August 2011
    Have only read OP so my apologies if I'm covering old ground here.

    I have very similar issues as you in this regard, which is a big part of why I no longer habitually play online.  If I felt I had better BRM I would plunge back in, but until I feel its an issue I can better manage, the end result will always be the same.

    I dont fully agree that there isnt money in MTT or reasonable value in S+G's.  It would always be my preffered format. 

    MTT is by definition always going to be HV, but standard S+G's 9 through 45 seats are an easier sample to quantify, but sadly it only seems that sky players prefer dym's and cash throughout the day.  If there were more 9 seater S+G's it would be good.

    But cash is equally HV IMO, there being pro's and cons in relation to risk aversion and getting paid.

    I think it was Lol raise who made a quality comment on a thread months ago, regarding never having less than 500BI in your account.  Making losing 1BI utterly immaterial, negating the tendancy to tilt that you mention
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited August 2011
    Grinding tournaments to make a profit is hard enough, perhaps too hard, never mind on stars with fields of thousands regularly, i used to do it and got bored so switched back to cash which i think is the most reliable and consistent way to make money, only advice i could give is play a v.big volume and if you play correct it should even out or lead to a slight profit 
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: a serious and common problem:
    Have only read OP so my apologies if I'm covering old ground here. I have very similar issues as you in this regard, which is a big part of why I no longer habitually play online.  If I felt I had better BRM I would plunge back in, but until I feel its an issue I can better manage, the end result will always be the same. I dont fully agree that there isnt money in MTT or reasonable value in S+G's.  It would always be my preffered format.  MTT is by definition always going to be HV, but standard S+G's 9 through 45 seats are an easier sample to quantify, but sadly it only seems that sky players prefer dym's and cash throughout the day.  If there were more 9 seater S+G's it would be good. But cash is equally HV IMO, there being pro's and cons in relation to risk aversion and getting paid. I think it was Lol raise who made a quality comment on a thread months ago, regarding never having less than 500BI in your account.  Making losing 1BI utterly immaterial, negating the tendancy to tilt that you mention
    Posted by AMYBR
    I assume thats not meant to be 500? Like other wise you need 2K to play 4NL. Losing a buy in would be meaningless, but winning 10 wouldnt mean much either
  • thorpey1thorpey1 Member Posts: 165
    edited August 2011
      hi don just my opion but never play with scared money if you cant afford to lose dont play gl mate
  • lynx3ffectlynx3ffect Member Posts: 452
    edited August 2011
    basically u dont have the roll for any stakes if losing £2 causes u a problem, save ur money and come back in a year when u have some
  • BelovedLtdBelovedLtd Member Posts: 188
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: a serious and common problem:
    Im the same as you, but I find vash very boring (except rush poker - which we all know is dead now on FTP). I also dont like cash cos I cant make the transition from raising 2.5BB in a tournament to raising 5+ BB in a cash game?!. I end up raising 3BB and wonder why I get 6 callers lol.  The thing about tournaments is, it only takes ONE tournament to make your career/life/year etc, I know guys who are horrendous players who have taken down $5000 wins on $5 crapshoots on stars etc. You're like, WTF, how did YOU win that?! 
    Posted by LLCooLD
    Yep this - I'd say it might be best to stick with MTT's, the variance is very high - but as LL says one win changes the landscape completely.

    Having said that I don't think it's too frequent that people come from nowhere and win 5 or 6k - for example - but if you're regularly bubbling or cashing then it's definitely feasible that a reasonable score is just around the corner.

    I've tried cash a few times, and still can't get interested in it - my problem is the lack of a goal. People have said to aim for a time based goal, or a profit based goal (or some other alternative)  -but so far nothing can really beat the tournament goal of being the last person standing. I'm going to keep giving cash the occasional go, but if you're an MTT player then I'd stick with mainly MTT's.
  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited August 2011
    Hey grantorino.

    Yep typo, reads as 50.  Hope fortune is favouring the brave :p
  • scotty77scotty77 Member Posts: 4,970
    edited August 2011
    this is why a life roll and a poker roll is needed for any serious poker player.


  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited August 2011
    can i please confirm that i do have enough to eat and buy milk with. I was simply using as example of the nonsense that runs through my head when i lose a pot on cash. I have tilted in the past with MTTs but i seem to be getting over tht now.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: a serious and common problem:
    can i please confirm that i do have enough to eat and buy milk with. I was simply using as example of the nonsense that runs through my head when i lose a pot on cash. I have tilted in the past with MTTs but i seem to be getting over tht now.
    Posted by The_Don90
    Glad to hear, your not going to starve. The point remains though if losing 1/2 a buy in tilts you, you sre not going to play your A game enough. I think you should leave cash until you can deposit enough to play comfortably. Still think sngs might suit you well given that you like tourneys and want to reduce variance a little
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: a serious and common problem:
    In Response to Re: a serious and common problem : Glad to hear, your not going to starve. The point remains though if losing 1/2 a buy in tilts you, you sre not going to play your A game enough. I think you should leave cash until you can deposit enough to play comfortably. Still think sngs might suit you well given that you like tourneys and want to reduce variance a little
    Posted by grantorino
    Possibly a good idea. ive signed up for a bonus elsewhere that requires me to play a minimum of 20 Stts a week at one level so may give that a go. The real thing im looking at is my sky account however. Dyms are really the only option on sky (except HUs - where i do feel i have an edge btw) and i just get bored of dyms. Even 9 running and im bored.

    Seriously bad issue i suspect.
  • salazarsalazar Member Posts: 330
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: a serious and common problem:
    can i please confirm that i do have enough to eat and buy milk with. I was simply using as example of the nonsense that runs through my head when i lose a pot on cash. I have tilted in the past with MTTs but i seem to be getting over tht now.
    Posted by The_Don90
    You have to be comfortable losing 3 buy-ins in a night when playing cash. I'm not saying you have to like it or that it's going to happen that often but you do need to be able to accept that it will happen now and then. (I once had all the money in pre with aces 3 times in a night and lost all of them). Now even if you're only playing 2p 4p, that's £12.

    I see the question what games should i be playing for this size roll or how much do i need to play at this level asked a lot. Everyone is different and some people need more buy-ins to feel comfortable than others but if you take the fact that you could lose 3 buy-ins in a night then that should give you a better idea of where you should be.
    If losing £12 is too much then cash is not for you at the moment, small buy in sng's and mtt's might be the best bet.
    Poker should be enjoyable and it certainly won't be if you're losing money you can't afford to lose
  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited August 2011
    Cash BR depends on how much you multi-table imo.
    If you just play 1-2 tables in a whole session then you can definitely get away with having 20BB if you're a successful player, however any more and you really need a bigger role! I play 9 tables and i always start with at least 40 buy-ins, but it varies with how many tables you play!
  • LLCooLDLLCooLD Member Posts: 78
    edited August 2011
    FWIW, regarding the milk comment, if you have proper bankroll management, I dare say your "losses" wont affect you mentally.
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: a serious and common problem:
    FWIW, regarding the milk comment, if you have proper bankroll management, I dare say your "losses" wont affect you mentally.
    Posted by LLCooLD
    can i conform that this is not the case. The problem i think more lies with ego. I just hate losing. Ive been rolled in the past at one point i took a 500BI rule on another site i lost one buy in and went nuts.
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