In Response to Re: Do pros ever go bust? FAO LOLRAISE, lolu, gliterbabe, ljamesl, brownndog, etc : 100x buy in's is 1% of BR 250 is 0.4% so yeah thats a BR nit ) obviously 50,000 is not his entire BR so he is a massive BR nit Posted by rancid
I'm interested in some of the responses made to the OP, and will have some further questions (which some might consider somewhat naive) later. But for now the figures given above . . . On the 2p/4p tables where I've played in the past, a buy-in is £4? So if 100 BIs (£400) represents 1% of a bankroll, does that then mean that to carry an acceptable RoR you'd need a bankroll of £40K (100 x 100 x £4)? Seems a bit over-egged?
In Response to Re: Do pros ever go bust? FAO LOLRAISE, lolu, gliterbabe, ljamesl, brownndog, etc : I'm interested in some of the responses made to the OP, and will have some further questions (which some might consider somewhat naive) later. But for now the figures given above . . . On the 2p/4p tables where I've played in the past, a buy-in is £4? So if 100 BIs (£400) represents 1% of a bankroll, does that then mean that to carry an acceptable RoR you'd need a bankroll of £40K (100 x 100 x £4)? Seems a bit over-egged? Posted by Goethe
100 buy ins for NL4 is £400 - so a BR of £400 so this would mean you only have 1% of your BR in play on one table
NL4 a BR of £80 is adequate to start - 20 buy ins 5% of your BR in play on one table
Very interesting thread Bandini, gave me a good read. On the topic of BRM, I'd appreciate people's input on my own BRM. I started with £20 and have gradually worked it up to £200 by playing 2p/4p (now 50 BIs) and I'm still playing at this level, do you think this is too tight? Or should I move up to 4p/8p? Posted by Lambert180
Good work mate.
With £200 you HAVE to start playing NL10 now or at least try NL8 for a few 100 hands, maybe give it 1000 hands there but you gotta move up to NL10 soon with 20 BI's at that level, continuing at NL4 is just wasting your time lol.
Very interesting thread Bandini, gave me a good read. On the topic of BRM, I'd appreciate people's input on my own BRM. I started with £20 and have gradually worked it up to £200 by playing 2p/4p (now 50 BIs) and I'm still playing at this level, do you think this is too tight? Or should I move up to 4p/8p? Posted by Lambert180
You are comfortably rolled for nl8 now i would give it ago and if you drop down to 160 you can always play nl4 again. Do you multitable? if so maybe 2 nl4 tables and 2 nl8 to help you with the transition but you get the same calibre of player in nl8 as nl4 so i imagine you will do fine
In Response to Re: Do pros ever go bust? FAO LOLRAISE, lolu, gliterbabe, ljamesl, brownndog, etc : 100 buy ins for NL4 is £400 - so a BR of £400 so this would mean you only have 1% of your BR in play on one table NL4 a BR of £80 is adequate to start - 20 buy ins 5% of your BR in play on one table Posted by rancid
In poker, due to the dynamics and vaguaries of the game, it's hard (if not impossible) to calculate a risk of ruin figure. I can see from this example how to calculate a %age of a bankroll on any one table, which isn't the same thing. Is %age of bankroll on the table at any one time the defacto basis for calculating what bankroll is required at any given level to give an acceptable RoR? And what is an acceptable RoR considered to be in hold'em?
I've done a lot of these sums for Blackjack, but that's a very different game and frankly one that's a lot easier to analyse. In online poker you can down-level almost to the penny tables to maintain a desired RoR (%age) where in BJ you can't - at some stage bet units will hit the table minimums.
I never multitable cash games at diff levels , like 2xnl4 and 2xnl8 i always play at the same level as i think its difficult to equate buy ins won/lost and i would hate to run really well on the lower level and lose on the higher one xx
I am multi-tabling but I'm relatively new to it so doing about 3 tables at the moment just til I get comfortable and can increase that a bit. Plus I hate mini-view so having to try and get used to that.
Yeah I just didn't know if because I'm playing 3 tables, if I play 8NL then that means I've got £24 on the table as soon as I sit down which seems like a big chunk of my £200 BR.
I guess we're working on the basis that alot of the people at this level are junk so in terms of ups and downs, your downs should be less??
My own experience, (brag btw) i spun $8 into $160 at NL4 plus a few MTT's, then moved up to NL8 and spun up to $196, obviously sticking to the 20 x BI rule. I then had a horrific run and suffered some really bad variance and dropped below $160. I knew this had affected my confidence for the first time and dropped back to playing small STT's to try and turn it around.
After a small break, (lakes for a week), i returned to NL4 and have taken an age to grind back up to $170-$180. I'm getting there. Only small scale stuff this but this seemed to stop the slide and stopped me tilting and losing everything and going busto. Do not move up a level to chase your losses, if anything drop down a level or two until you feel you are playing well again.
Cheers Dude and Jams. I am multi-tabling but I'm relatively new to it so doing about 3 tables at the moment just til I get comfortable and can increase that a bit. Plus I hate mini-view so having to try and get used to that. Yeah I just didn't know if because I'm playing 3 tables, if I play 8NL then that means I've got £24 on the table as soon as I sit down which seems like a big chunk of my £200 BR. I guess we're working on the basis that alot of the people at this level are junk so in terms of ups and downs, your downs should be less?? Posted by Lambert180
This is so crazy because that's exactly how I felt when I started multitabling back when I was playing 4NL, I actually didn't multitable till I had £80 (20 BI's) this now seems obsurd as single tabling would probably make my brain melt lol
On the having £24 on the tables yes in theory this is what you do have but after playing multitable cash for a while now you soon realise that the only reason you do it is so you simply see more hands. If you're playing good solid poker (which is the ONLY way up to 10NL, maybe higher lol) then you'll just continue doing what you did on one table but it means you don't have to wait 10 years for the some guy to min bet 3 streets and the other to slow roll call down with 3rd pair, you always have action happening and this in turn stops you from playing too loose/getting bored.
Another thing with multitabling is when you get good days they can be REALLY good but of course you get the odd bad day that can be REALLY bad lol just about getting more good ones.
if I play 8NL then that means I've got £24 on the table as soon as I sit down which seems like a big chunk of my £200 BR. Posted by Lambert180
Playing online merely means you can play more than one "live" session. So if you playing four tables then your really playing four live sessions in one session.
Only move up when you feel comfortable playing 8NL or 10NL If you feel your not playing the same then you should not be playing. If your playing 20 buy ins you need to feel confident you can beat the level your playing. Half your BR gone and you realise the step up was not a good idea, i know how this feels ) I would advocate waiting for 25 buy ins, give yourself a 5 buy in window to handle the variance to start with.
In Response to Re: Do pros ever go bust? FAO LOLRAISE, lolu, gliterbabe, ljamesl, brownndog, etc : In poker, due to the dynamics and vaguaries of the game, it's hard (if not impossible) to calculate a risk of ruin figure. I can see from this example how to calculate a %age of a bankroll on any one table, which isn't the same thing. Is %age of bankroll on the table at any one time the defacto basis for calculating what bankroll is required at any given level to give an acceptable RoR? And what is an acceptable RoR considered to be in hold'em? I've done a lot of these sums for Blackjack, but that's a very different game and frankly one that's a lot easier to analyse. In online poker you can down-level almost to the penny tables to maintain a desired RoR (%age) where in BJ you can't - at some stage bet units will hit the table minimums. Posted by Goethe
No idea about ROR figures as the variance can kill you or make you money. Obviously the smaller the percentage of your BR in play at once should reduce the chances of ROR, the higher would increae it. So lets say you play with 1% then you will have to run bad 100 buy ins constant. You would have to be a really bad player or essentially your running totaly against the fundamental percentages of the game by loosing so many all in situations. A bad run can be 10-20 buy ins and alternativley a good run can be the same so......
IVe said it before on here but ive busted numerous 1k+ rolls when i first started winning through bad BRM. It was pretty soul destroying at the time but if youre sure that you can win at some level of poker then there is always a way back.
If youre disciplined(which i wasnt) then a very aggressive bankroll strategy is the way to go. If you have the willpower to take 2 or 3 buyin shots and drop down when you lose then you should do that at all the lower limits upto 100nl i would say. While some people can grind away at 4nl using a 20 or 30 buyin rule it isnt really advisable(some might disagree).
In Response to Re: Do pros ever go bust? FAO LOLRAISE, lolu, gliterbabe, ljamesl, brownndog, etc : No idea about ROR figures as the variance can kill you or make you money. Obviously the smaller the percentage of your BR in play at once should reduce the chances of ROR, the higher would increae it. So lets say you play with 1% then you will have to run bad 100 buy ins constant. You would have to be a really bad player or essentially your running totaly against the fundamental percentages of the game by loosing so many all in situations. A bad run can be 10-20 buy ins and alternativley a good run can be the same so...... Posted by rancid
Thanks. So, in your experience, what's the chance/frequency of blowing 20 BIs before things turnaround? You'd, say, 20 on the trot every "X" BI's wagered?
As it so happens, when I was playing cash (immediately after I started playing again around 7 months ago) I ended up c20 BIs down, with just 1/2 a per cent of osing lhands being attributable to this. Also, the loss to date is only slightly higher than what I'd been stung for on the rake on my winning hands over the period.
Cheers Dude and Jams. I am multi-tabling but I'm relatively new to it so doing about 3 tables at the moment just til I get comfortable and can increase that a bit. Plus I hate mini-view so having to try and get used to that. Yeah I just didn't know if because I'm playing 3 tables, if I play 8NL then that means I've got £24 on the table as soon as I sit down which seems like a big chunk of my £200 BR. I guess we're working on the basis that alot of the people at this level are junk so in terms of ups and downs, your downs should be less?? Posted by Lambert180
Same i find it harder to remember my reads on people in mini view. Personally i never play more than 4 tables but i think 3 is optimum for me as i can still concentrate on important aspects of all the tables i am playing as i occsionally miss things when i play more stack size of oponant or position it there is a new comer to the table who has posted something that can through you off slightly. Maybe drop it to 2 tables of nl8 then your playing £16 only slightly more that the 12 your playing on 3 tables of nl4? Whatever you decide good luck hope you run well
IVe said it before on here but ive busted numerous 1k+ rolls when i first started winning through bad BRM. It was pretty soul destroying at the time but if youre sure that you can win at some level of poker then there is always a way back. If youre disciplined(which i wasnt) then a very aggressive bankroll strategy is the way to go. If you have the willpower to take 2 or 3 buyin shots and drop down when you lose then you should do that at all the lower limits upto 100nl i would say. While some people can grind away at 4nl using a 20 or 30 buyin rule it isnt really advisable(some might disagree). Posted by offshoot
:-)
Again, thanks. It was the chaps of your calibre I was interested in hearing from.
I'm still not forgiving you for having KK in the BB against my A10 in the button when I'd won free entry into Sunday's high roller and was cruising to a cash. But I guess I'll get over it, lol.
In Response to Re: Do pros ever go bust? FAO LOLRAISE, lolu, gliterbabe, ljamesl, brownndog, etc : Thanks. So, in your experience, what's the chance/frequency of blowing 20 BIs before things turnaround? Posted by Goethe
This is almost impossible to answer acccurately, as it depends how good you are for the level you are playing.
A player who is crushing a level may have a 20BI downswing less than once every 12 months.
An average to good winning player (say one who is winning 3 - 6 bb's/100 hands) would see this more often.
It can also depend on playing style. A player who plays v.aggro, and plays more hands can have higher variance than a nit.
Comments
so this would mean you only have 1% of your BR in play on one table
NL4 a BR of £80 is adequate to start - 20 buy ins
5% of your BR in play on one table
With £200 you HAVE to start playing NL10 now or at least try NL8 for a few 100 hands, maybe give it 1000 hands there but you gotta move up to NL10 soon with 20 BI's at that level, continuing at NL4 is just wasting your time lol.
Also if you do move up stay away from my tables !
I've done a lot of these sums for Blackjack, but that's a very different game and frankly one that's a lot easier to analyse. In online poker you can down-level almost to the penny tables to maintain a desired RoR (%age) where in BJ you can't - at some stage bet units will hit the table minimums.
I am multi-tabling but I'm relatively new to it so doing about 3 tables at the moment just til I get comfortable and can increase that a bit. Plus I hate mini-view so having to try and get used to that.
Yeah I just didn't know if because I'm playing 3 tables, if I play 8NL then that means I've got £24 on the table as soon as I sit down which seems like a big chunk of my £200 BR.
I guess we're working on the basis that alot of the people at this level are junk so in terms of ups and downs, your downs should be less??
My own experience, (brag btw) i spun $8 into $160 at NL4 plus a few MTT's, then moved up to NL8 and spun up to $196, obviously sticking to the 20 x BI rule. I then had a horrific run and suffered some really bad variance and dropped below $160. I knew this had affected my confidence for the first time and dropped back to playing small STT's to try and turn it around.
After a small break, (lakes for a week), i returned to NL4 and have taken an age to grind back up to $170-$180. I'm getting there. Only small scale stuff this but this seemed to stop the slide and stopped me tilting and losing everything and going busto. Do not move up a level to chase your losses, if anything drop down a level or two until you feel you are playing well again.
Good luck.
On the having £24 on the tables yes in theory this is what you do have but after playing multitable cash for a while now you soon realise that the only reason you do it is so you simply see more hands. If you're playing good solid poker (which is the ONLY way up to 10NL, maybe higher lol) then you'll just continue doing what you did on one table but it means you don't have to wait 10 years for the some guy to min bet 3 streets and the other to slow roll call down with 3rd pair, you always have action happening and this in turn stops you from playing too loose/getting bored.
Another thing with multitabling is when you get good days they can be REALLY good but of course you get the odd bad day that can be REALLY bad lol just about getting more good ones.
So if you playing four tables then your really playing four live sessions in one session.
Only move up when you feel comfortable playing 8NL or 10NL
If you feel your not playing the same then you should not be playing.
If your playing 20 buy ins you need to feel confident you can beat the level your playing.
Half your BR gone and you realise the step up was not a good idea, i know how this feels )
I would advocate waiting for 25 buy ins, give yourself a 5 buy in window to handle the variance to start with.
Obviously the smaller the percentage of your BR in play at once should reduce the chances of ROR, the higher would increae it.
So lets say you play with 1% then you will have to run bad 100 buy ins constant.
You would have to be a really bad player or essentially your running totaly against the fundamental percentages of the game by loosing so many all in situations.
A bad run can be 10-20 buy ins and alternativley a good run can be the same so......
If youre disciplined(which i wasnt) then a very aggressive bankroll strategy is the way to go. If you have the willpower to take 2 or 3 buyin shots and drop down when you lose then you should do that at all the lower limits upto 100nl i would say. While some people can grind away at 4nl using a 20 or 30 buyin rule it isnt really advisable(some might disagree).
As it so happens, when I was playing cash (immediately after I started playing again around 7 months ago) I ended up c20 BIs down, with just 1/2 a per cent of osing lhands being attributable to this. Also, the loss to date is only slightly higher than what I'd been stung for on the rake on my winning hands over the period.
Again, thanks. It was the chaps of your calibre I was interested in hearing from.
I'm still not forgiving you for having KK in the BB against my A10 in the button when I'd won free entry into Sunday's high roller and was cruising to a cash. But I guess I'll get over it, lol.