Following on from Pros going bust thread....

Goethe

I'm interested in finding out more about the numbers for "playing pro".

Although everyone's circumstances are different, if we say that the national average take-home pay is around £1,500 per month (having removed the London effect/impact from the national average wage figure of c£28K). and this is a figure that a pro player will aspire to pulling in every month, a couple of questions:


What level do you need to play at? (Have been told that an average win rate should be 3xBBs per hour - in which case you'd need to play at the £1/£2 tables just to "earn" the equivalent of the National Minimum Wage.

How much action do you need to put across the cash tables in order to achieve it? On the 3xBBs figure above, playing 48 hours per week, 192 hours per month, this would mean players needed to play at the £2/£4 tables?

What bankroll would be required to give a reasonable Risk of Ruin? From the previous thread and the above, if a Buy-In is 100xBBs, £400, and a player was happy to play with 2% on a table, then this would require £20K.


So, taking all of the above into account, a pro looking to take home the equivalent of the national average wage would need a bankroll of £20K, would have to play 48 hours per week on the £2/£4 tables? Obviously, multi-tabling would reduce the playing time required, but would increase the variance and risk of taking a serious hit to the bankroll. And of course, assumes consistently overcoming the rake. All seems achievable, although the rake issue is one that will have a profound effect on the return.

Comments?

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Following on from Pros going bust thread....:

So, taking all of the above into account, a pro looking to take home the equivalent of the national average wage would need a bankroll of £20K, would have to play 48 hours per week on the £2/£4 tables? Obviously, multi-tabling would reduce the playing time required, but would increase the variance and risk of taking a serious hit to the bankroll. And of course, assumes consistently overcoming the rake. All seems achievable, although the rake issue is one that will have a profound effect on the return. Comments?
Posted by Goethe

Nah it wouldn't, multi tabling has the opposite effect and reduces the variance.

Most of the pros on here will be playing at least 6 tables, and probably more if that many games were to run at once....

They could be 6 buy ins down on 1 table, 6 buy ins up on another, and maybe 1 buy in up on the other 4, giving a +4 buy ins session.

If they were to just 1 table their results would be much more inconsistant.

More Volume = Less varience.

N1CK

there are plenty of very good players grinding a living out of nl50

grantorino

rakeback and/or bonuses would be a large % of earnings for hich volume low stakes players

jakally

It's very much down to personal circumstances, but most players who are full time will aspire to much more than £1500/month.

It's a high risk, high variance, potentially short term, gig, therefore the rewards need to be worthwhile.

Also, I would suggest that most successful full time players have a higher than average earning potential outside of poker.

I don't know of any full time players who only play 1 table  (apart from live players obv), but the number of tables can vary from 3 or 4, to 16 or even higher.

As N1ck says, people are playing FT from £0.25 / £0.50 (and $0.25/$0.50 on other sites) upwards, but at this  level it's more likely to need more hours x more tables.

As to bankroll, 100 buy ins is a sensible start point for a full timer who doesn't want to go bust easily.... some play with less, and get away with it, but the lower you start, the higher the risk.

Lambert180

On the topic of this. I asked a question about this on channel 865 when Gliterbabe was on but he didn't really answer it in the way I wanted, to be honest, he was probably very limited with time allowed to answer and was just very quick and general...

So, what is the usual process for someone who has went pro in terms of actually seeing that £2000 per month income? Obviously you don't want to be lowering your BR and if you're just increasing it loads then obviously you haven't got that money in your pocket to pay the bills. Would you say have a BR of 20k and every month however much you're over the 20k you withdraw or what?

debdobs_67

I remember AJS said a while back that he keeps only 30 buy-ins on his account and lives off of the excess , has never gone bust and makes a gd living from it , i think it was when he was a guest on the show xx

Lambert180

But then you can't ever step up a level can you? Do you think if you're doing it was a living you should move up the levels to a point where you can still comfortably win consistently and then maintain that 30BIs on your account and not worry about going up levels?

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Following on from Pros going bust thread....:

But then you can't ever step up a level can you? Do you think if you're doing it was a living you should move up the levels to a point where you can still comfortably win consistently and then maintain that 30BIs on your account and not worry about going up levels?
Posted by Lambert180

I think he meant he worked his way up and continued to keep 30 buy-ins

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Following on from Pros going bust thread....:

In Response to Re: Following on from Pros going bust thread.... : I think he meant he worked his way up and continued to keep 30 buy-ins
Posted by debdobs_67

Well that's what I mean, how much of your profit do you devote to increasing your BR to move up levels and how much do you devote to withdrawals for paying the bills etc.

Like if your BR is 20k and you get it up to 23k one month. Are you pocketing 2k and leaving your BR as 21k or only pocketing 1k and leaving your BR as 22k or are you just pocketing the 3k and continue playing your 20k BR?

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Following on from Pros going bust thread....:

In Response to Re: Following on from Pros going bust thread.... : Well that's what I mean, how much of your profit do you devote to increasing your BR to move up levels and how much do you devote to withdrawals for paying the bills etc. Like if your BR is 20k and you get it up to 23k one month. Are you pocketing 2k and leaving your BR as 21k or only pocketing 1k and leaving your BR as 22k or are you just pocketing the 3k and continue playing your 20k BR?
Posted by Lambert180

Probably the last part of your post would be the most likely imo + i reckon some cash players keep a certain amount aside from their cash br for mtts etc , thats what i do xx

Dudeskin8

I'd imagine you just keep moving up till you realise you're simply not good enough to win anymore and then once you fine your level build a BR of say 50 BI's and then just cream off any profits for personal stuff or like Debs said MTT entry fee's

jakally

The one thing that is less  common than it used to be is  players keeping huge chunks in their poker accounts.

The Stars / Full Tilt situation has opened some people's eyes to the reality that this isn't a good idea.

(Clearly it's never been a good way of getting value for your money, but poker players who spend all day trying to makie +EV game decisions, are often lazier at applying the same process to real life).

Therefore, just because someone only has x BI's on a site, doesn't mean that is their poker bankroll.

Personally, I withdraw back down to a set amount at the start  of every month.

offshoot

Goethe - 3bb per 100 hands is what you should be thinking in terms of, not per hour. If someone was playing 48 hours per week of 2/4 i think they would be looking to earn way more than the national average. I think people playing 50nl can probably earn more than 1.5k a month playing those kind of hours.

Does anyone know how many hands you get dealt an hour on sky?

delaney09

i'd say it averages out at around 30-45 hands an hour somewhere in that range

Lambert180

You sure about that Delaney? The stats that come out of Sky are not particularly accurate but I used to play 1p/2p on Titan when I first got started and the stats on Titan were much better and it used to average about 70 hands per hour minimum. Obviously if you get solid players on a cash table, the majority of hands are going to go fold, fold, fold and last 20 seconds.

delaney09

In Response to Re: Following on from Pros going bust thread....:

You sure about that Delaney? The stats that come out of Sky are not particularly accurate but I used to play 1p/2p on Titan when I first got started and the stats on Titan were much better and it used to average about 70 hands per hour minimum. Obviously if you get solid players on a cash table, the majority of hands are going to go fold, fold, fold and last 20 seconds.
Posted by Lambert180

i thought i wrote on average, must of changed it.... what stats that come out of sky ? i rarely play much cash im just going by when i play sometimes its around the 30-45 mark maybe a few more, its obviously going to be different at each level though i would presume ?

huuuuume

£1500 a month would be easily achievable at £0.25/£0.50 as it is only the equivalent on winning one buy in per day.

i dont think the people who do it as pros are aiming to win so little though.  if you win one buy in per day at £100/200 you could come away with £6000 a month which would give you much more reason to consider doing it as a job. 

i assume before making the decision to go pro you would need a significant amount in savings to help lower the risk and guarantee you can pay the bills if you have a bad month etc

also, the top players on this site are clearing £1500 in the cash for points bonus alone so even if this was all they cashed out each month they would still be earning an above average salary

im making it all sound very easy but i think sometimes we forget just how much money changes hands.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Following on from Pros going bust thread....:

In Response to Re: Following on from Pros going bust thread.... : i thought i wrote on average, must of changed it.... what stats that come out of sky ? i rarely play much cash im just going by when i play sometimes its around the 30-45 mark maybe a few more, its obviously going to be different at each level though i would presume ?
Posted by delaney09

When you're on the table and you click on the 'Game Info' tab (I think it's that one) on a cash table and it tells you the stacks of everyone at the table, the number of hands per hour (apparently) and I think the average pot size. But the number of hands/hour never seems to be right.

Yeah it does really depend what level you're playing and also if it's cash/STT/MTT AND obviously if it's a 6max table or 10max, but definitely at the low levels on Titan I was getting in about 70 hands/hour.

I'm just nitpicking really..

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: Following on from Pros going bust thread....:

i'd say it averages out at around 30-45 hands an hour somewhere in that range
Posted by delaney09

Imo i think its higher!? dunno but beig that sky has no time bank i would have thought it would be around the 100 h/hr mark ...

Goethe

Thanks all. Interesting reading.