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Bubble Advice

GlenelgGlenelg Member Posts: 6,600
edited August 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Hi All,
After a bit of advice re bubble play.  Tourney was a £2:30 BH 300+ runners and it was down to last 7 - 1 x 4 handed and the table I was on x 3.  I was 7/7 with a stack of 26k.  Blinds were 2/4k but were just about to go up to 2.5/5k nxt hand.  My question is should/could I have waited?  I know the real answer is NOT to get myself into this situation in the first place, but I'd lost a flip 6/7 hands earlier and was treading water!

Any general advice would also be welcome. 
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
daves Small blind  2000.00 2000.00 52808.97
Glenelg Big blind  4000.00 6000.00 26650.00
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • 10
     
carlucio Fold     
daves Raise  6000.00 12000.00 46808.97
Glenelg All-in  26650.00 38650.00 0.00
daves Call  22650.00 61300.00 24158.97
daves Show
  • 8
  • A
   
Glenelg Show
  • K
  • 10
   
Flop
   
  • 8
  • A
  • J
     
Turn
   
  • 7
     
River
   
  • 4
     
daves Win Two Pairs, Aces and 8s 61300.00  85458.97
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Comments

  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited August 2011
    Some say you can go as low as 7 bb's, like Scotty77 last night, but I just keep it simple at 10 bb's so here you have 6.6 bb's therefore are in that very dangerous area of needing to shove any unopened pot.

    This is 3 handed so K10 is pretty good and daves is just looking to steal for minimum so shove is fine, in future I would try not to get this low if possible.

    Also never be scared of bubbling, remember playing MTT's is mainly about finishing in the top 3 spots prefereably winning it so just cashing and doubling your buy in makes hardly any difference if you're playing within a proper bankroll.
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  • sikassikas Member Posts: 857
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: Bubble Advice:
    Some say you can go as low as 7 bb's, like Scotty77 last night, but I just keep it simple at 10 bb's so here you have 6.6 bb's therefore are in that very dangerous area of needing to shove any unopened pot. This is 3 handed so K10 is pretty good and daves is just looking to steal for minimum so shove is fine, in future I would try not to get this low if possible. Also never be scared of bubbling, remember playing MTT's is mainly about finishing in the top 3 spots prefereably winning it so just cashing and doubling your buy in makes hardly any difference if you're playing within a proper bankroll.
    Posted by Dudeskin8


    imo if your gonna re steal/shove do it with something like 54s-89s ur gonna have more equity in the hand than they're perceived calling range if u do it with some like K10, they're likely to snap u off with KJ, KQ, AK, A10 all of which have you dominated

    also with only 7bb's u dont have that much fold equity and ppl are gonna look u up lighter as its that stage of the game where u have to get lucky to make the big money, (u can only reshove 7bb's for value, when u feel ur ahead of their range) ur best off re shoving with 10-14 bb's (to fold out better hands)as they're gonna need a monster hand to call, if u lose u lose ur probs werent gonna make the big money anyway but if u double thru ur in good position for the final table
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: Bubble Advice:
    In Response to Re: Bubble Advice : imo if your gonna re steal/shove do it with something like 54s-89s ur gonna have more equity in the hand than they're perceived calling range if u do it with some like K10, they're likely to snap u off with KJ, KQ, AK, A10 all of which have you dominated also with only 7bb's u dont have that much fold equity and ppl are gonna look u up lighter as its that stage of the game where u have to get lucky to make the big money, (u can only reshove 7bb's for value, when u feel ur ahead of their range) ur best off re shoving with 10-14 bb's (to fold out better hands)as they're gonna need a monster hand to call, if u lose u lose ur probs werent gonna make the big money anyway but if u double thru ur in good position for the final table
    Posted by sikas
    Well if i'm honest I am very tight (uber nit) so would fold but everytime I say that people say it's bad what canny do.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2011

    7 is just too low.

    It might work occasionally, if I'm in the bb with 10xbb and I know that in the next 18 hands I'm gonna get dealt QQ+ or AK I will wait, but it's not gonna happen, very few players run that good!

    Just because a winning player can make money playing this way doesn't make it right.

    There's some terrible MTT players on here with winning records, who do the most outragious things that are obviously mistakes. Justifying the play by pointing out they are profitable MTT players doesn't make it right.

    They'd win even more if they cut out the mistakes. (and continue to run as good as they do, ofc)


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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: Bubble Advice:
    7 is just too low. It might work occasionally, if I'm in the bb with 10xbb and I know that in the next 18 hands I'm gonna get dealt QQ+ or AK I will wait, but it's not gonna happen, very few players run that good! Just because a winning player can make money playing this way doesn't make it right. There's some terrible MTT players on here with winning records, who do the most outragious things that are obviously mistakes. Justifying the play by pointing out they are profitable MTT players doesn't make it right. They'd win even more if they cut out the mistakes. (and continue to run as good as they do, ofc)
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Yh totally agree it's just that when Scotty says it as a VERY good player it makes you think, I personally start open shoving anything up to around 15-20 at times.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH Member Posts: 17,929
    edited August 2011

    I can PM you a list of 5/6 winning players off sky who reguarly 

    - limp/fold from 7/8xbb stacks (or in some cases even lower)

    - raise 4x from 12xbb stacks @ 5k/10k and fold to re-shoves

    - limp/call shoves themselves with hands like 22 from an 8xbb stack 

    - Fold right down to 1/2/3 big blinds on the cash bubble of tournys they are over rolled for

    etc etc etc lol

    You have to run reallylyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy good to play this bad/sub-optimally and still show a big profit.

    Some people actually do though.

    Variance I spose!!!! ;)

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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: Bubble Advice:
    I can PM you a list of 5/6 winning players off sky who reguarly  - limp/fold from 7/8xbb stacks (or in some cases even lower) - raise 4x from 12xbb stacks @ 5k/10k and fold to re-shoves - limp/call shoves themselves with hands like 22 from an 8xbb stack  - Fold right down to 1/2/3 big blinds on the cash bubble of tournys they are over rolled for etc etc etc lol You have to run reallylyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy good to play this bad/sub-optimally and still show a big profit. Some people actually do though. Variance I spose!!!! ;)
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    I guess if you bink a ME early on you just carry on doing the same stuff oblivious that you ran like Jesus that one time.

    Oh and PM would be good lol
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited August 2011
    meh w/o antes i think going to 7bbs is fine
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited August 2011
    I think much of it depends on your table.  You obv felt that the re jam BonB had a good chance to get throught?  Or that the K10 was likely best hand?

    If the table is pretty snug I may release to recoup the loss by open jamming un opened spots in the orbit.  But if you feel like the table is likely to snap you off if your jamming after folding in the K10 spot then i dont mind getting it in here.  Opponent does have reasonable FE.

    As always its hard to say from a hand in isolation, but I suspect that you had good reason to get your stack in here on the bubble.  Anyway, practically flipping as it turns out, which was going to be likely.  Dont thing getting it in here overall is bad.
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited August 2011
    You don't really have any FE here. I do prefer to be the first person in the pot in these short stack situations. K10 is a decent hand in your position (i mean your position in the tournament, not the table) but your in trouble against quite alot of hands that are calling you here, any PP, any A, better Ks. But hey, ya gotta win a few races if you wanna win a tourney and he could be stealing with much worse than K10, I prob do the same.
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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67 Member Posts: 3,615
    edited August 2011
    This is why i flatted the other day in the BB , i had 9bb's after i posted and got min raised from the button and made up the 1bb raise to see if i could hit my 10d 8d , ok results orientated maybe BUT i flopped a set and got a river value bet paid off.The point was for the sake of 1 extra bb i took a pot of 8 1/2 bb's and even if i lose this hand on the flop ive still got 8 bb's left with at least another orbit to get a shovable hand with.Now when i told this to anothet player they said NO reg would ever do this BUT i said id seen numerous regs doin it.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: Bubble Advice:
    This is why i flatted the other day in the BB , i had 9bb's after i posted and got min raised from the button and made up the 1bb raise to see if i could hit my 10d 8d , ok results orientated maybe BUT i flopped a set and got a river value bet paid off.The point was for the sake of 1 extra bb i took a pot of 8 1/2 bb's and even if i lose this hand on the flop ive still got 8 bb's left with at least another orbit to get a shovable hand with.Now when i told this to anothet player they said NO reg would ever do this BUT i said id seen numerous regs doin it.
    Posted by debdobs_67
    Ok I'll rephrase it, no DECENT REG would EVER do this. :)
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  • GlenelgGlenelg Member Posts: 6,600
    edited August 2011


    Thanks for comments. Some food for thought as usual. Hope I get as far as bubble tonight in DTD's!

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