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is this bad -

rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
edited September 2011 in The Poker Clinic
No K OR A on flop - my chips are in the middle
stevew44 Small blind   200.00 200.00 45135.00
thepower1 Big blind   400.00 600.00 9221.25
  Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
     
Mordechai Fold        
Vegas_Baby Fold        
Bounce194 Call   400.00 1000.00 25249.94
rancid Raise   1200.00 2200.00 7690.00
stevew44 Raise   2600.00 4800.00 42535.00
thepower1 Fold        
Bounce194 Call   2400.00 7200.00 22849.94
rancid Call   1600.00 8800.00 6090.00
Flop
   
  • 6
  • 3
  • K
     
stevew44 Bet   6600.00 15400.00 35935.00
Bounce194 Fold        
rancid Fold        
stevew44 Muck        
stevew44 Win   8800.00   44735.00
stevew44 Return   6600.00 0.00 51335.00
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Comments

  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited August 2011
    In pre MaGee.
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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited August 2011
    yeah, it's bad
    get it in pre


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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67 Member Posts: 3,615
    edited August 2011
    All in shove pre defo
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  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited August 2011
    Yup. All in pre
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  • SALT1R3SALT1R3 Member Posts: 319
    edited August 2011
    Yeah I'm shoving pre on that raise, if he has AA/AK/KK pre, gl to him.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited August 2011
    yeah i did play it very risk averse, i felt i played it badly after - should of just 4 bet shoved
    hey ho still had 15 bigs at the end of hand, also after the 3 bet and the flat, i called getting 4/1 but ..... still 

    Are you open shoving 22 bigs QQ - no bubble dynamic 
    4 bet shoving 19 bigs seems standard to me looking back but I am not 100%

    set me straight plz




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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited August 2011
    All in pre twice on sundays ;)

    in response after your raise someone re-raises you flatting is not very good here perfect spot to shove why have you flatted?
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: is this bad -:
    All in pre twice on sundays ;) in response after your raise someone re-raises you flatting is not very good here perfect spot to shove why have you flatted?
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    I flat because I thought I was deep enough getting 4/1 on the call, no A or K and ship it.
    Looking back at it I put a third of my stack in with that call regardless on price, 4 bet shove all day init.

    Think my mind was not on the hand at all. I still went on to cash deep but this hand has been bugging me, so i pulled up HH.
    I just don't want to go away from the hand thinking I played it risk averse and thats ok, so just need some clarity that it was as bad as I first thought.




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  • percival09percival09 Member Posts: 3,804
    edited August 2011
    you don't want to open shove 22BB - raise/c shove is fine
    there's dead money in the pot - easy 4bet shove with QQ !! i'd do it with like any pair here lol
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: is this bad -:
    In Response to Re: is this bad - : I flat because I thought I was deep enough getting 4/1 on the call, no A or K and ship it. Looking back at it I put a third of my stack in with that call regardless on price, 4 bet shove all day init. Think my mind was not on the hand at all. I still went on to cash deep but this hand has been bugging me, so i pulled up HH. I just don't want to go away from the hand thinking I played it risk averse and thats ok, so just need some clarity that it was as bad as I first thought.
    Posted by rancid
    Why do you think this is a good idea? You still go broke against KK+ and there is only 1 other hand you are not a big favourite over
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: is this bad -:
    In Response to Re: is this bad - : Why do you think this is a good idea? You still go broke against KK+ and there is only 1 other hand you are not a big favourite over
    Posted by grantorino
    This was my thinking at the time of the hand:
    When he 3 bet i thought AA/KK/AK, so i either 4 bet shove now and take my chances or see a flop and see if no A or K appears. I can't fold QQ to a 3 bet can I, so I am all in pre with a 4 bet or on the flop, if they turn over AA/KK then so be it :s I am not folding ever.
     So I thought at the time a flat was my best option to at least try to avoid going out to AK seeing 5 cards. I am thinking this because there's so many situations where you 4 bet your pr v AK pre and the A or K hits on turn or river. So if you flat when deep enough they don't see five cards with AK  but only 3 as your shoving flop if no A or K. Lets face it it's more likey the A or K does not appear on flop, so why increase the AK's chance of wining by letting them see 5 cards.

    Does anyone know the percentages - QQVAK if you only see the frist three cards ?

    Does this make sense to anyone ? Or am I in my own world of risk averse nessssssssssssssssssssss

    Gran would you consider folding to the 3 bet and not taking the small percentage edge at best v AK






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  • dylan12dylan12 Member Posts: 2,343
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: is this bad -:
    In Response to Re: is this bad - : This was my thinking at the time of the hand: When he 3 bet i thought AA/KK/AK, so i either 4 bet shove now and take my chances or see a flop and see if no A or K appears. I can't fold QQ to a 3 bet can I, so I am all in pre with a 4 bet or on the flop, if they turn over AA/KK then so be it :s I am not folding ever.  So I thought at the time a flat was my best option to at least try to avoid going out to AK seeing 5 cards. I am thinking this because there's so many situations where you 4 bet your pr v AK pre and the A or K hits on turn or river. So if you flat when deep enough they don't see five cards with AK  but only 3 as your shoving flop if no A or K. Lets face it it's more likey the A or K does not appear on flop, so why increase the AK's chance of wining by letting them see 5 cards. Does anyone know the percentages - QQVAK if you only see the frist three cards ? Does this make sense to anyone ? Or am I in my own world of risk averse nessssssssssssssssssssss
    Posted by rancid
    Because you will win more often than not.

    If they have AK, happy days, give me QQ every day of the week and twice on Sundays v AK

    Ship it in pre, you want hands like AK to call. 
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: is this bad -:
    In Response to Re: is this bad - : Because you will win more often than not. If they have AK, happy days, give me QQ every day of the week and twice on Sundays v AK Ship it in pre, you want hands like AK to call. 
    Posted by dylan12
    i hear ya
    By shipping it pre QQ is slight fav with five cards to come and yeah ofc you wanna take the 60/40

    by flatting, AK can only hit three cards, I have never looked into this but if AK only sees three cards then it must improve the percentages in our favour. How the **** does  this compute

    I am nipping over to 2+2 for some math :s I am going to be yelled at :D






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  • dylan12dylan12 Member Posts: 2,343
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: is this bad -:
    In Response to Re: is this bad - : i hear ya By shipping it pre QQ is slight fav with five cards to come and yeah ofc you wanna take the 60/40 by flatting, AK can only hit three cards, I have never looked into this but if AK only sees three cards then it must improve the percentages in our favour. How the **** does  this compute I am nipping over to 2+2 for some math :s I am going to be yelled at :D
    Posted by rancid
    If you see the flop and it comes for instance T85 rainbow then you are roughly 75% fav to win with QQ. Your logic of flatting pre to see the flop v AK is fine when playing with a deep stack, but in your instance here with this particular hand it is not optimal to just call from your stack due to you not being deep enough to do so and a shove is the correct move in this instance. 
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: is this bad -:
    In Response to Re: is this bad - : If you see the flop and it comes for instance T85 rainbow then you are roughly 75% fav to win with QQ. Your logic of flatting pre to see the flop v AK is fine when playing with a deep stack, but in your instance here with this particular hand it is not optimal to just call from your stack due to you not being deep enough to do so and a shove is the correct move in this instance. 
    Posted by dylan12
    Yeah that makes sense, I start this hand with 22 bigs.
    How many bigs would be classed as deep enough to make this flat a reasonable play.
    Are we talking 30+ 40+ ?



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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited September 2011
    I'd say like 100+.
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