Omaha (high): Flop Nuts

sortofblue

I’ve started playing a bit of lower stakes pot limit Omaha and had a similar situation a few times. I have flopped top set (e.g. one T on flop and I have TT in my hand) against either 1 or 2 opponents, but there are two suited cards on the flop of which I have none. Not wishing the flush draws to come along I put in a pot sized bet. This bet still seems to get called by flush draws, they hit I lose a lot. Am I right in thinking about the pot sized bet? Do they get the correct odds for the call? Does this happen at all levels of Omaha? Is there any value in playing it a bit slower and then betting safe turns and rivers, or keeping the pot small?

penguin7

Yes there is a lot of value in using pot control in these situations. And the potsized bet is not always the best option. The players who call you with the flush draw are only getting about 40%, but the implied odds mean that they are likely to take a lot more of your chips if they hit.

So a smaller bet on the flop, followed by a stronger bet on a blank turn will shift the odds in your favour.

It also to some extent disguises your hand. If the board pairs, you will be praying for the flush draw to hit, and get max value.

sortofblue

Thank you, I'll give that a go. Makes a lot of sense.

Talon

  For me the concept of slow playing or pot control whilst holding the nuts in omaha is the worst possible thing you can do. My reasoning for this is that you do not want to price people into calling and therefore out drawing you so you need to bet them out of the pot especially if your hand is vulnerable to redraws.

  In the example you have stated what you want to do is narrow the field and hopefully be playing the pot HU preferably in position( which gives you the chance to slow down if danger card appears). Any bet in omaha that is less than pot in size gives virtually every draw the odds to call so you should always be betting pot.

 When playing down the streets you need to use the 3 main attributes in omaha   Position(not always possible) Aggression and paranoia. Aggression allows you to take people on draws out of the pot and paranoia allows you to fold sets when flushing and straightening draws come in.

  The only time you should ever consider betting less than pot is when you want callers, this is when you have hands like quads or str8 flushes and want to be paid.On the flop a flush is about 2 to 1 to come in and a pot sized bet gives odds of 2 to 1 so they will call. If they miss on the turn they are now 4 to 1 and you can pot again to price them out of the hand.If they fold here you are taking down a bigger pot than if you had bet smaller. So bet big when you have the nuts to build the pot up but also be ready to fold if the situation demands it.

  Omaha is a very volatile game and need to be treated this way. NLHE concepts need to be fogotten such as check calling on draws and check raising the nuts.Also because it is pot limit you cannot wait until the river to get the money over the line so it needs to be built up down the streets and the best way of doing this is with pot sized bets. These should be done with both made hands and draws to ensure maximising your winnings.

penguin7

Its good to read opposing views, particularly from someone whose opinions I respect.

The OP doesnt say if he is talking about tournament or cash (I suspect the latter). But in tournament play I so often see players potbetting with this type of hand and being committed for their tournament. Obviously there are many other factors to take into account too.Position, the number of players to act after you, and their stack sizes. And in cash I think your own stack is very relevant. If you are sitting deep enough I am sure that a potsized bet is good.

But in tournaments or shorter stacked at cash, I still prefer considering  trying to improve the odds.From the OP, it seems that he has more than once found himself in situations where the 3rd suited card has hit the board and he has been unable to fold.

In no way would I suggest slow playing or check raising, but an automatic pot bet is too blunt an instrument. Yes on a rainbow flop, but if the flush draw is there, you will invariably get called.

With the nuts, am I looking to take a small pot on the flop, or do I want a caller?

A bet between half and 3/4 pot still folds out many hands, and builds the pot enough to either get serious chips in or get away depending on the turn.

I love your thoughts on aggression and paranoia, but certainly in tournament play I believe limiting your betting options to folding or potting, without considering the other factors cannot be the way forward.

We need more omaha threads on here

Talon

  If we are talking cash here. then i still favour potting the flop because the likelihood is we have gone to the flop 4 or possibly 5 way. A good strong pot bet her will be called but what we need to do is narrow the field especially if we have a good position. Pot control is a lot easier to achieve on the turn when we are 2 or 3 way and not in a big family pot. This way if a scare card has come in then we have the chance to give oursleves good odds for the redraw or the possibility to escape with only minimal damage. Pot bets on the flop do not commit us to the pot whereas a continued pot bet on the turn does so this is why we would have to reassess at this stage.

  Tournament play as you rightly pointed out is different and needs to be treated so. I have seen a lot of people commit themselves to a pot with just top set and no redraws other than house or quads but also doing the same with nothing other than a nut flush draw. Which hand would you want then?

  Your point about relevant stack sizes is also good because this does change our whole way of playing.

  My main concerns about these type of situations are twofold.

 Firstly:  With small betting and pot control tactics we are moving past paranoia and into the region of being scared of the outdraw. I think we need to be aware of outdraws but not to the point of minimising our potential winnings because we are so scared of them. Also almost inviting the outdraws by weker betting to price them all in. Also remembering that busted draws will not pay us off on the river so we only have the 2 streets of value for our hand.

 Secondly: Flopped sets are great but we must remember to never get married to them. We need to ally our aggression and big betting with the paranoia and sense to lay them down when things go wrong and we can therefore ensure that we lose the minmum. Folding big hands is a vital skill in omaha and there are many occasions when folding the nuts is the best move you can make.

penguin7

Yes I dont really think we are disagreeing here !

Which hand would I want on the flop, top set or nut flush draw ?

The set really, but I would want to build the pot with either.

But I wouldnt want to get married to it without seeing the turn, where I will either be 4/1 or 1/4.

So pot size v my stack must be a consideration.

quadfather

In Response to Re: Omaha (high): Flop Nuts:

  If we are talking cash here. then i still favour potting the flop because the likelihood is we have gone to the flop 4 or possibly 5 way. A good strong pot bet her will be called but what we need to do is narrow the field especially if we have a good position. Pot control is a lot easier to achieve on the turn when we are 2 or 3 way and not in a big family pot. This way if a scare card has come in then we have the chance to give oursleves good odds for the redraw or the possibility to escape with only minimal damage. Pot bets on the flop do not commit us to the pot whereas a continued pot bet on the turn does so this is why we would have to reassess at this stage.   Tournament play as you rightly pointed out is different and needs to be treated so. I have seen a lot of people commit themselves to a pot with just top set and no redraws other than house or quads but also doing the same with nothing other than a nut flush draw. Which hand would you want then?   Your point about relevant stack sizes is also good because this does change our whole way of playing.   My main concerns about these type of situations are twofold.  Firstly:  With small betting and pot control tactics we are moving past paranoia and into the region of being scared of the outdraw. I think we need to be aware of outdraws but not to the point of minimising our potential winnings because we are so scared of them. Also almost inviting the outdraws by weker betting to price them all in. Also remembering that busted draws will not pay us off on the river so we only have the 2 streets of value for our hand.  Secondly: Flopped sets are great but we must remember to never get married to them. We need to ally our aggression and big betting with the paranoia and sense to lay them down when things go wrong and we can therefore ensure that we lose the minmum. Folding big hands is a vital skill in omaha and there are many occasions when folding the nuts is the best move you can make.
Posted by Talon

when playing any pocket pairs in plo ring games uwant to c ftr as cheaap as pos because so many starting hands will b wraped around most flops and will have so many ots against u id be happy to put u all in on the with str8 and flush draws no prob id b charging u the max to fill up rather than u charging me to hit my draw  draws should allways be played hard on the flop in plo because the texture of boards change so much on each street u need to get paid when hit them

sortofblue

The case I was talking about was a cash game with pretty deep stacks. To me it was kind of a thought on thinking long term play and the idea of “maximising profit” or “minimising loss”.

Thanks for the comments. Judging by the responses, just the fact that I could see this is a bit of a discussion point means I feel pleased that I am kind of getting to grips with how I should be thinking about the game.

Talon

  During this thread we have talked mainly about getting people off or charging them with a flush draw but there is another aspect to consider with this hand as well.

 If you flop top set with tens then the board by nature must also be very straight draw heavy. Even the most uncoordinated of boards opens up these draws.The best you could hope for is T 6 2, this allowswrap draws to come along for the ride. These being 3 4 5  or 7 8 9. As you can see your hand is very vulnerable and needs to be treated as such. This is also the reason that in omaha we must get into the habit of thinking that we have flopped the temporary nuts and not having flopped the nuts.

   The principles of aggression and paranoia need to be adhered to at all times as these should always be your main weapons.With cash playthere are 2 main ways to increase your win rate.Firstly limit your opening range to a sensible hand range, you see too many people limping in with complete junk with luck as their only weapon to win. Secondly the ability to fold big hands when the board goes wrong is the best way to increase your winnings because minimising losses is vital in being successful.

jams88

In Response to Re: Omaha (high): Flop Nuts:

  During this thread we have talked mainly about getting people off or charging them with a flush draw but there is another aspect to consider with this hand as well.  If you flop top set with tens then the board by nature must also be very straight draw heavy. Even the most uncoordinated of boards opens up these draws.The best you could hope for is T 6 2, this allowswrap draws to come along for the ride. These being 3 4 5  or 7 8 9. As you can see your hand is very vulnerable and needs to be treated as such. This is also the reason that in omaha we must get into the habit of thinking that we have flopped the temporary nuts and not having flopped the nuts.    The principles of aggression and paranoia need to be adhered to at all times as these should always be your main weapons.With cash playthere are 2 main ways to increase your win rate.Firstly limit your opening range to a sensible hand range, you see too many people limping in with complete junk with luck as their only weapon to win. Secondly the ability to fold big hands when the board goes wrong is the best way to increase your winnings because minimising losses is vital in being successful.
Posted by Talon

This is my biggest weakness when i dabble in ohmha i only ever play the low stakes STT's not cash but im unsure o the sort of hands i should be calling raises with or raising myself with so i often end up limping my string hands in and decide how to continue from the flop. Should i be button raising if so what sort of hands. what hands are best to open with?

Talon

  The key to starting hand selection is quantity over quality.

   To explain this you have 4 cards and therefore 6 2-card hands. In an ideal world you want as many of these to be nut drawing as possible. A great starting hand will be 4+ nut drawing hands, less than 3 and you have a weak holding. In essence the more nut drawing starting hands you have the more chance you have of hitting the board and the more chance of winning. Staring hands fall into 3 categories. Good bad and overplayed.i will give examples of each.


Good:  89TJ ds (all 6 nut drawing)
           AAKQ ds ( 4 nut drawing but very powerful)

Bad:   K872 rainbow  (on 1 so avoid)
          A944 rainbow  ( only 1   A4 does not draw to nuts so be careful)


Overplayed  AA94 rainbow
                  KK82  Rainbow

      The above 2 get a lot of people into trouble because they see the big PP and want to make a big pot out of it.These hands are only good if they set up on the flop and house or quad up later. Very rarely does a set win let alone an overpair so these are hands that people overplay and just cant lay down and will lose a lot of money in the long run.


  Hope some of this helps.