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Played badly or just unlucky?

sillymunchsillymunch Member Posts: 299
edited September 2011 in The Poker Clinic
and yes i already know was a bad call on the river but what about the rest of it

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceshazbagSmall blind £0.02£0.02£1.44sillymunchBig blind £0.04£0.06£3.90 Your hole cardsA9   tally8Fold    coco3461Fold    pokerdad23Call £0.04£0.10£5.94devonfish5Call £0.04£0.14£5.85shazbagCall £0.02£0.16£1.42sillymunchCheck    Flop  K98   shazbagCheck    sillymunchCheck    pokerdad23Check    devonfish5Check    Turn  9   shazbagCheck    sillymunchBet £0.12£0.28£3.78pokerdad23Raise £0.24£0.52£5.70devonfish5Fold    shazbagFold    sillymunchRaise £0.60£1.12£3.18pokerdad23Call £0.48£1.60£5.22River  Q   sillymunchCheck    pokerdad23Bet £1.60£3.20£3.62sillymunchCall £1.60£4.80£1.58pokerdad23ShowK2   sillymunchMuckA9   pokerdad23WinFlush to the King£4.44 £8.06

Comments

  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2011
    Just unlucky. I don't think it is a terrible call on the river. They don't always have the flush here.
  • sillymunchsillymunch Member Posts: 299
    edited September 2011
    well today i have had 3 sessions, and all of em ended the same way, me losing with 3 of a kind, to a flush, a full house, and now another flush :(
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2011
    It happens sometimes.

    Although, I do prefer a set to trips...
  • sillymunchsillymunch Member Posts: 299
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Played badly or just unlucky?:
    It happens sometimes. Although, I do prefer a set to trips...
    Posted by Lambert180
    me 2, my first one was a set, the other two was trips, and it was cus of the trips that he got the full house lol, and this one, i just knew he didnt have a 9, i thought maybe a king, but then to find out he called on a flush draw with 1 card left i thought wow what a bad play.
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Played badly or just unlucky?:
    In Response to Re: Played badly or just unlucky? : me 2, my first one was a set, the other two was trips, and it was cus of the trips that he got the full house lol, and this one, i just knew he didnt have a 9, i thought maybe a king, but then to find out he called on a flush draw with 1 card left i thought wow what a bad play.
    Posted by sillymunch
    Exactly, and that's how you make you're profit, because if he keeps making these calls against you, you're gonna win alot more often than he will.
  • BorinLonerBorinLoner Member Posts: 3,863
    edited September 2011
    Firstly I should say that I'm not a big cash player. I'm really a SNG expert, so I don't want to sound like I'm talking down to you. When I play cash I frequently leave the table with much lighter pockets than when I arrived.

    On the turn, I think you need to be making a much larger 3-bet. I would want to try to get the money in here and now, if I assume my 9 is good. The pre-flop play makes it highly unlikely that the opponent is playing 88 or KK, so it's highly likely that trip 9's with an Ace is good right now. However there are two flush draws on the board, so you really need to charge quite a bit for him to see the river. A reasonably strong King is also likely to pay you off, so a larger raise both protects your hand and is a solid value bet. I'm not suggesting your 3-bet should be a shove, but perhaps closer to 90p more for him.

    I'm not really used to Sky Poker's hand history presentation thingymibob, but it looks like you raised it 48p more with your turn 3-bet. That gives him odds of about 2.3/1. Obviously not good enough on their own to make the call correct but his implied odds of you calling a river-bet probably justify his call here. He should realise that his two pair, no kicker, are no good at this stage but having the King and a flush draw makes it a difficult hand to fold. So I can't criticise his play on the turn.

    It's a tough hand after the flop, mainly because you have little information on the strength of your opponents' hands. I have no idea what would possess someone to limp into a pot, pre-flop, with K2. The best advice would seem to be to get very aggressive pre-flop when people limp and you have half a hand. Follow it up with a c-bet on most flops and you'll make alot of money from players like this.

    Hope that's helpful and that you don't need a nap in the middle. Essay writing for the win.
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited September 2011
    jam turn imo

    river you have to call ul.
  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN Member Posts: 8,948
    edited September 2011
    I dont think you done alot wrong here IMO, UL

    also i dont think your opponent played it too bad
  • BLACK_MASSBLACK_MASS Member Posts: 401
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Played badly or just unlucky?:
    jam turn imo river you have to call ul.
    Posted by The_Don90

    I dont think this is a good idea. You want value right not folds from worse ? Only boats will ( should ) call in that spot.
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Played badly or just unlucky?:
    In Response to Re: Played badly or just unlucky? : jam turn imo river you have to call ul. Posted by The_Don90
    I dont think this is a good idea. You want value right not folds from worse ? Only boats will ( should ) call in that spot.
    Posted by BLACK_MASS

    @ NL4 i think the min click back tells us the villian isnt folding. Any 9 and K is snapping us off and i think a vast amount of flush draws too.
  • sillymunchsillymunch Member Posts: 299
    edited September 2011
    btw thank you to the person who reminded me of DOHHHs thread, i know i read it but i re read it after you posted the link and reminded myself of using the overbet on the river, and it netted me a £1.20 profit instead of the usual 30p profit :)
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited September 2011
    looked specifically for this hand as an example of how to play NL4 in my eyes. I think its relivent to a number of things brought up in here.

    Pre flop KJs 2 limpers, neither of them are ever folding so i think its best to just flat and see a flop. I also know the BB isnt going to raise with worse either which helps. The BB was a player who doesnt play NL4 usually. He normall higher.
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    The_Don90 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £7.64
     Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £4.81
     Your hole cards
    • K
    • J
       
     Call  £0.04 £0.10 £4.52
     Fold     
     Fold     
    Call  £0.04 £0.14 £4.32
    The_Don90 Call  £0.02 £0.16 £7.62
     Check   

    Flop comes down and i flop as big as i can without hitting. Usually here id bet for value at most levels. But a i ever getting it through if i miss? unlikley so check call.
    Flop
      
    • 4
    • 10
    • 8
       
    The_Don90 Check     
     Check     
     Bet  £0.04 £0.20 £4.48
     Fold     
    The_Don90 Call  £0.04 £0.24 £7.58
     Fold   
    Turn gives me top pair. A straight is well within his range, i opt for the check call again. Seeing what happens.
    Turn
      
    • J
       
    The_Don90 Check     
     Bet  £0.24 £0.48 £4.24
    The_Don90 Call  £0.24 £0.72 £7.34
    So the river gives me the nuts, now how do we play. Well the opponent has shown alot of strenth here. Now i felt i had 2 opinions. One over bet the river, or check then shove. I went for the latter purley because i had notes on the villian. They stated the turn bet meant he was massive therefore im confortable checking to jam. Ifs hes good enough to fold ive got sme extra value, and if he calls i take the max.
    River
      
    • A
       
    The_Don90 Check     
     Bet  £0.72 £1.44 £3.52
    The_Don90 All-in  £7.34 £8.78 £0.00
     All-in  £3.52 £12.30 £0.00
    The_Don90 Unmatched bet  £3.10 £9.20 £3.10
    The_Don90 Show
    • K
    • J
       
     Show
    • 7
    • 9
       
    The_Don90 Win Flush to the Ace £8.51  £11.61
    This hand is slightly different to thats posted but looking at the discussion i think its relievent to discussing. My thought process is posted here and i think looking back its pretty much spot on.

    This imo is also why i shove the turn.
  • BLACK_MASSBLACK_MASS Member Posts: 401
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Played badly or just unlucky?: This hand is slightly different to thats posted but looking at the discussion i think its relevant to discussing. My thought process is posted here and i think looking back its pretty much spot on. This imo is also why i shove the turn.
    Posted by The_Don90

    WHAT ?!  Ok then lol.
    And villain made call because........it's NL4. I think i understand now thx The_Don90.
  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Played badly or just unlucky?:
    In Response to Re: Played badly or just unlucky? : This hand is slightly different to thats posted but looking at the discussion i think its relevant to discussing. My thought process is posted here and i think looking back its pretty much spot on. This imo is also why i shove the turn. Posted by The_Don90
    WHAT ?!  Ok then lol. And villain made call because........it's NL4. I think i understand now thx The_Don90.
    Posted by BLACK_MASS

    yea its a bad example because of the villians hand. but also look at how i play the hand, have i got anything but a flush? a fgood player can fold here. what im getting at is people will call with far worse.
  • Lambert180Lambert180 Member Posts: 12,197
    edited September 2011
    Don I think your hand post was an excellent summary of the way to get maximum value from your hands at 4NL.
  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited September 2011
    I'm not sure about shoving turn but I would raise a lot more, you made it 64p after 24p minraise I would make it about £1.20 ish which makes river shove easier.
  • BLACK_MASSBLACK_MASS Member Posts: 401
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Played badly or just unlucky?:
    Don I think your hand post was an excellent summary of the way to get maximum value from your hands at 4NL.
    Posted by Lambert180
    Savage nut crammage !
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