Call or Raise here?

Dudeskin8

Player is REG plays 2 tables, one hand flatted 3x raise pre w/10's and called bet on J high flop.

x	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£12.85
pwazza	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£5.83
	Your hole cards	10 10
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£15.02
super_fly	Fold
MrPirate	Fold
x	Call		£0.25	£0.70	£12.60
pwazza	Fold
Flop
		K 10 K
x	Check
Dudeskin8	Bet		£0.30	£1.00	£14.72
x	Call		£0.30	£1.30	£12.30
Turn
		8
x	Check
Dudeskin8	Bet		£0.98	£2.28	£13.74
x	Raise		£1.96	£4.24	£10.34
Dudeskin8

BLACK_MASS

min raise he got K.

grantorino

bet flop and turn bigger

with your lack of reads I'm raising

pod1

prob raise enough to get it all in on river i suppose, yeah, what he said!

AMYBR

Agree, need to bet an amount that makes it impossible for him to fold a jam on river.  He has a K or 8's.  If he has K10/K8 your going broke in anycase. 

BLACK_MASS

In Response to Re: Call or Raise here?:

Agree, need to bet an amount that makes it impossible for him to fold a jam on river.  He has a K or 8's.  If he has K10/K8 your going broke in anycase. 
Posted by AMYBR

Yeah but without making it too obvious. You cant call incase diamond hits river and he's scared of flush with trip K's.
You bet and he raised big, just click back after bit of dwellage and hopefully he does same again. If he's bluffing he will fold anyway. Hopefully he will jam with K-J/Q.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Call or Raise here?:

In Response to Re: Call or Raise here? : Yeah but without making it too obvious. You cant call incase diamond hits river and he's scared of flush with trip K's. You bet and he raised big, just click back after bit of dwellage and hopefully he does same again. If he's bluffing he will fold anyway. Hopefully he will jam with K-J/Q.
Posted by BLACK_MASS

Clicking it back isnt a big enough raise to make river an easy shove and it also looks stronger than a bigger raise imo. Also if he is bluffing,calling is obv best line as he may fire river

BLACK_MASS

In Response to Re: Call or Raise here?:

In Response to Re: Call or Raise here? : Clicking it back isnt a big enough raise to make river an easy shove and it also looks stronger than a bigger raise imo. Also if he is bluffing,calling is obv best line as he may fire river
Posted by grantorino

It's the most polarised board ever.  If someone raised it big it looks stronger to me. Personally i would fold K-Q/J to big raise. Clicking back may inspire the same response as before. Could be scared fd semi bluff ? At least get call and not fold ?
There is no certain way i suppose to guarantee the all in which you want. Opponent dependant. Not saying you are wrong tho.

AMYBR

I 3bet to 4.7 - 5.2 knowing if i get called here rest goes in on river.  The re click back here doesnt seem right to me.  Your kind of isolating your range and playing your hand face up in some ways.  The stronger bet is always going to look weaker than the click.  If he's bluffing with the click back he'll most likely c/f river once called, but will be far more inclined to get his stack in on this street with the 4bet jam.  Pretty sure he has a hand that he wonr fold.  May even be a cooler and stronger than you at turn.  But he's asking for action, in a spot where your hand is concealed, so give it to him.

rancid

you gotta raise here what are you worried about
If he got quads then hey ho better FH (
You gotta go for max value from a Kx hand

Just a cooler m8

raiae to about £4.80

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Call or Raise here?:

you gotta raise here what are you worried about If he got quads then hey ho better FH ( You gotta go for max value from a Kx hand Just a cooler m8 raiae to about £4.80
Posted by rancid

LOLz it's pretty **** obvious I'm not folding jesus.....

BLACK_MASS

In Response to Re: Call or Raise here?:

I 3bet to 4.7 - 5.2 knowing if i get called here rest goes in on river.  The re click back here doesnt seem right to me.  Your kind of isolating your range and playing your hand face up in some ways.  The stronger bet is always going to look weaker than the click.  If he's bluffing with the click back he'll most likely c/f river once called, but will be far more inclined to get his stack in on this street with the 4bet jam.  Pretty sure he has a hand that he wonr fold.  May even be a cooler and stronger than you at turn.  But he's asking for action, in a spot where your hand is concealed, so give it to him.
Posted by AMYBR

I was looking for someone to convince me. This always seemed counterintuitive to me and maybe a long-term leak in my game. I'll make more effort in this area. It doesn't have to work as often as the value bets to be profitable i guess.
It's still hard to believe that people don't think the same way.
I need to jam rivers with big hands more maybe too. I have conditioned myself to be afraid of losing value and perhaps am too subtle.
Thanks for your views man. I'll try*  to get back to you in a month or so with results. *(if i remember. middle-age is punishing me in this area   post-it note on monitor BET HARDER YOU DITZOID !!! )

grantorino

In Response to Re: Call or Raise here?:

In Response to Re: Call or Raise here? : I was looking for someone to convince me. This always seemed counterintuitive to me and maybe a long-term leak in my game. I'll make more effort in this area. It doesn't have to work as often as the value bets to be profitable i guess. It's still hard to believe that people don't think the same way. I need to jam rivers with big hands more maybe too. I have conditioned myself to be afraid of losing value and perhaps am too subtle. Thanks for your views man. I'll try*  to get back to you in a month or so with results. *(if i remember. middle-age is punishing me in this area   post-it note on monitor BET HARDER YOU DITZOID !!! )
Posted by BLACK_MASS

If you raise turn here it looks really strong regardless of sizing. Also we have a monster so we want to get our stack in by river, therefore Im going to size my betting in a way that doesnt require me to bet massive on the river if he flats

Its not true that a smaller raise looks stronger than a bigger one , but both look so strong here I'm raising bigger because I doubt it affects his continuing range much and it makes it easier get stacks over the line

percival09

i'm always 3b readless - you want all his chips, don't raise too much though, i'd literally make it like £4.20 or something - makes river shove easy if called and let him believe he has fe for a turn shove

WHOAMI196

i like a call here in possition, giving him rope if hes bluffing since he aint reppin much! if he has the K its going all in on the river no matter what...

DrSharp

make it 4.50.

liamboi11

I prob make anyfin between £5 to £6 on turn basically half his stack most ppl will just ship it if they have the king and they way he has played it i think defo he has .also a question would anyone consider just moving allin here on the turn when he raises does it look weak or strong by doing this?

DOHHHHHHH

"RAISE IT UP, a little bit......."

4.20 total is good.

debdobs_67

Yeah i agree with the £4.20-£4.60 range ya gotta be lookin to get him totally commited no matter what the river card is

Dudeskin8

Well did raise and amzingly they folded, would have killed to know what they had lol

x	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£12.85
pwazza	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£5.83
	Your hole cards	10 10
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£15.02
super_fly	Fold
MrPirate	Fold
x	Call		£0.25	£0.70	£12.60
pwazza	Fold
Flop
		K 10 K
x	Check
Dudeskin8	Bet		£0.30	£1.00	£14.72
x	Call		£0.30	£1.30	£12.30
Turn
		8
x	Check
Dudeskin8	Bet		£0.98	£2.28	£13.74
x	Raise		£1.96	£4.24	£10.34
Dudeskin8	Raise		£4.80	£9.04	£8.94
x	Fold
Dudeskin8	Muck
Dudeskin8	Win		£4.82		£13.76
Dudeskin8	Return		£3.82	£0.40	£17.58

grantorino

He had air, or a pocket pair that he either decided to turn into a bluff or more likely a pocket pair he raised to "see where he was"