Did I play this badly?

Lambert180

Basically the only thing to question is... are we too shallow for me to call a bet of that size on the flop with the open ender? I often wonder whether am playing my draws correctly at 4NL so all thoughts are appreciated.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
RANGER135	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.70
Lambert180	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£4.24
	Your hole cards	7 8
RockSolid	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£3.49
Cahill125	Raise		£0.08	£0.18	£4.43
bully60	Call		£0.08	£0.26	£1.06
RANGER135	Call		£0.06	£0.32	£1.64
Lambert180	Call		£0.04	£0.36	£4.20
RockSolid	Call		£0.04	£0.40	£3.45
Flop
		6 6 5
RANGER135	Check
Lambert180	Check
RockSolid	Bet		£0.40	£0.80	£3.05
Cahill125	Fold
bully60	Fold
RANGER135	Call		£0.40	£1.20	£1.24
Lambert180	Call		£0.40	£1.60	£3.80
Turn
		10
RANGER135	Check
Lambert180	Check
RockSolid	Bet		£0.80	£2.40	£2.25
RANGER135	Fold
Lambert180	Fold
RockSolid	Muck
RockSolid	Win		£1.48		£3.73
RockSolid	Return		£0.80	£0.12	£4.53

WHOAMI196

lambert, pretty standard situation and you played it well, flop call is standard in that situation.

playing ur draws can be very easy using quick math, and once you know the math you dont have to think and calculate it you will know it automatically its simple....But difficult to explain but il try...

On the flop lets say you got 8 strong outs meaning you have a 18% hand and means your going to hit about 1-5 by the turn e.g..

(Outs x 2 for 1 card to come + 2 to be accurate...........and x 4 for 2 cards to come = your %) Only multiply ur outs by 1 card to come if ur only going to call the flop to the turn! not by 2 cards to come as this is a mistake.

although you weren't getting 4-1 to give you the correct price, but actually 3-1 ( 120 / 40) .....But implied odds and stack sizes plays a role. So ur initial call was fine. But to call on the turn is bad, implied odds diminish since you would want to start building a pot and ovc its a larger bet so although its 3-1 again its different, and in relation to stack size its much bigger and damaging so is -EV so good fold bud.

Implied odds is your expected value when hitting ur hand, but it relies totally on you oppo e.g v a fish ur implied odds are massive but v solid player you have much less.

Dudeskin8

Pre is just about ok.

Flop is snap fold for me, yes you have a straight draw but he has bet POT, not half pot, POT, so FOR ME calling here is NOT good. If bet was 20p it's perfectly fine but even with ranger calling before you I don't like it, also I wouldn't worry too much about 'implied odds' until you have some GREAT reads built up over 1000's of hands, at NL4 you DO NOT need those sort of reads.

Turn as played fold as well as it's like 20 bb's to hit draw with one card, not for me mate.

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: Did I play this badly?:

Pre is just about ok. Flop is snap fold for me, yes you have a straight draw but he has bet POT, not half pot, POT, so FOR ME calling here is NOT good. If bet was 20p it's perfectly fine but even with ranger calling before you I don't like it, also I wouldn't worry too much about 'implied odds' until you have some GREAT reads built up over 1000's of hands, at NL4 you DO NOT need those sort of reads. Turn as played fold as well as it's like 20 bb's to hit draw with one card, not for me mate.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Eh? sorry m8 but that doesn't make much sense. "you need great reads but do not need those sort of reads"????

Implied odds make marginal calls profitable esp against the right oppo, not just  at NL4 but at any level. But more so at nl4 since there are more fish there.

I would not give advice if i felt i was not qualified so id appreciate if you would not cross-reference my post with yours suggesting its BAD (i HAVE BEEN GUILTY MYSELF IN THE PAST, AND NOT BEEN QUALIFIED TO DO SO).......  BUT making your own judgement is entirely your opinion......

DOHHHHHHH

What about reverse implied odds on paired boards? ....

"GO . . . . . . . . . ."

sillymunch

lol you hit your straight go all in he calls and shows 10Diamonds, 10Spades xD

in a sense, from what i have read, suited connectors should never be played on NL4, because with suited connectors you will usually be faced with tough calls after the flop, as long as your calculating your odds i dont think its a hugely bad call, you need 5 limpers for this move to be profitable which is what you got, you was just short of the odds after the flop, but sometimes its ok to take 1 stab at it with 2 callers, so again fine, but when you miss it its dangerous to carry on, so as played you did fine.

Did you notice that after the flop came he priced you out of the draw by putting in a pot sized raise, it was only the caller that was keeping you in it? but after the turn came he priced you in for a call at half the pot?

its 1 possible read of the situation but as i dont know the player in question i couldnt guarentee thats his reasoning but what if he did hit the FH on the turn?

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: Did I play this badly?:

lol you hit your straight go all in he calls and shows 10Diamonds, 10Spades xD in a sense, from what i have read, suited connectors should never be played on NL4, because with suited connectors you will usually be faced with tough calls after the flop, as long as your calculating your odds i dont think its a hugely bad call, you need 5 limpers for this move to be profitable which is what you got, you was just short of the odds after the flop, but sometimes its ok to take 1 stab at it with 2 callers, so again fine, but when you miss it its dangerous to carry on, so as played you did fine. Did you notice that after the flop came he priced you out of the draw by putting in a pot sized raise, it was only the caller that was keeping you in it? but after the turn came he priced you in for a call at half the pot? its 1 possible read of the situation but as i dont know the player in question i couldnt guarentee thats his reasoning but what if he did hit the FH on the turn?
Posted by sillymunch

He doesnt have a straight mate

sillymunch

In Response to Re: Did I play this badly?:

In Response to Re: Did I play this badly? : He doesnt have a straight mate
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

I know it was a what if scenario based on the implied odds/reverse implied odds discussion, i wasnt talking about what has happened but what could of happened if he had hit his straight

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: Did I play this badly?:

lol you hit your straight go all in he calls and shows 10Diamonds, 10Spades xD in a sense, from what i have read, suited connectors should never be played on NL4, because with suited connectors you will usually be faced with tough calls after the flop, as long as your calculating your odds i dont think its a hugely bad call, you need 5 limpers for this move to be profitable which is what you got, you was just short of the odds after the flop, but sometimes its ok to take 1 stab at it with 2 callers, so again fine, but when you miss it its dangerous to carry on, so as played you did fine. Did you notice that after the flop came he priced you out of the draw by putting in a pot sized raise, it was only the caller that was keeping you in it? but after the turn came he priced you in for a call at half the pot? its 1 possible read of the situation but as i dont know the player in question i couldnt guarentee thats his reasoning but what if he did hit the FH on the turn?
Posted by sillymunch

I agree you shouldn't go too crazy on paired boards but you shouldn't play scared either, My main point was about playing draws and if we did have 8 solid outs which will be the case MOST of the time tbf this what we can be thinking about to make right decision..

There is value playing draws even in this scenario on a paired board, but weighing it up v oppo and stack sizes it is definitely profitable. Folding is the safest option for sure poss the optimum?? play but a call is not BAD.

Back to helping lambert, by calculating the simple math working ur outs getting ur percentage etc you can start being confident  on playing your draws and be sure over-time you will be making profit.. 

grantorino

In Response to Re: Did I play this badly?:

Pre is just about ok. Flop is snap fold for me, yes you have a straight draw but he has bet POT, not half pot, POT, so FOR ME calling here is NOT good. If bet was 20p it's perfectly fine but even with ranger calling before you I don't like it, also I wouldn't worry too much about 'implied odds' until you have some GREAT reads built up over 1000's of hands, at NL4 you DO NOT need those sort of reads. Turn as played fold as well as it's like 20 bb's to hit draw with one card, not for me mate.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Why call pre if we are folding postflop when we hit a decent draw?

What he has bet isnt as relevant as the odds we get to call and what effective stacks are behind. If it indicates he is strong, good, our implied odds are better. Occasionally we may valuetown ourselves against a boat, more likely to stack trips or overpairs imo

If you shouldnt worry about implied odds, do you fold small pocket pairs pre to a raise readless if you dont get 8/1? Ofc you worry about implied odds, they are a big part of where you get an edge from and they are usually going to be bigger at 4NL than higher up. You are right that reads are helpful, and implied odds will vary massively depending on villain, but in the absence of reads you do what you always do and assign average ranges and tendencies

Lambert I think pre and flop are fine. Turn is close, but being oop reduces our implied odds a lot here so I prob fold. I might well peel ip.

Lambert180

Thanks guys.

I was gonna question you Dude about you having a problem with him betting the pot on the flop, as Grantorino says above, I want him to be strong here (not the boat obv) because that means I'm getting his stack when I hit the straight.

And yeah I agree that you shouldn't call at 4NL with medium suited connectors (USUALLY) but here I've got 32p in the pot, 4p for a call, 2nd to last to act so it's very likely I'll make it to the flop for the 4p, and I'm doing it with the intention of flopping trips/houses/straights/flushes, not 2nd pair lol, so no I shouldn't get in a tricky spot post flop Silly, either I hit or I don't.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Did I play this badly?:

In Response to Re: Did I play this badly? : Why call pre if we are folding postflop when we hit a decent draw? What he has bet isnt as relevant as the odds we get to call and what effective stacks are behind. If it indicates he is strong, good, our implied odds are better. Occasionally we may valuetown ourselves against a boat, more likely to stack trips or overpairs imo If you shouldnt worry about implied odds, do you fold small pocket pairs pre to a raise readless if you dont get 8/1? Ofc you worry about implied odds, they are a big part of where you get an edge from and they are usually going to be bigger at 4NL than higher up. You are right that reads are helpful, and implied odds will vary massively depending on villain, but in the absence of reads you do what you always do and assign average ranges and tendencies Lambert I think pre and flop are fine. Turn is close, but being oop reduces our implied odds a lot here so I prob fold. I might well peel ip.
Posted by grantorino

I wouldn't call pre personlly as I'd have already ticked c/f box and yes if I faced a pot bet even with striaght draw I wouldn't be massive happy about calling it, to get the right odds you have to see turn and river right, not just one card and what if he bets 75% on turn we then fold and have only seen one card which isn't great. If it was a half-pot bet I would defo call as odds are much better and pot stays smaller for turn unlike here.

grantorino

to call flop we need to get about 60p more from him if we hit on turn. We prob should add a little to this as our draw isnt to the nuts, but I still think our implied odds are easily good enough to call