I hear what your saying about trying to manage variance by folding. But if we take this line then we might aswell stop playing poker.
I have seen this recently in a MTT with a simple open shove UTG 15 BB -- +4 seat folded AK and showed me and said "only ace high" - o course I was like what are you doing. Then it turns out the BB folded AK aswel - lol
We may aswel just be nits and fold )
Essentially if you take the line of limping or flatting AK to induce action behind, then you should be just going with it. The more players in then yes your pecentage goes down but your price is better.
can you not just reload if you lose? THe only reason you should fold is if you have to stand up if you lose. Posted by offshoot
Yeah I've come to the conclusion that this is correct overall. Was my 1st buy in of 3 and a half. So shouldnt have been an issue.
As said in previous post, its connected to my managment of variance and steam, which is a flaw obviously. I just dont love racing 5 way aipf with 1BB invested. But should really be a case of shrugging it off, reloading and moving on I guess.
I just hate losing big pots to those tards . Opting not to do it marginally. If I can put one of them on a real hand its not so bad, but was very clear to me they all had junk. If I felt it was dominated junk I'd of definately got it in.
Interesting thoughts from everyone and thankyou. I think I should be concentrating on extrecating my cash lines from my MTT lines (for sure) as they pretty much run in tandem.
I hear what your saying about trying to manage variance by folding. But if we take this line then we might aswell stop playing poker. I have seen this recently in a MTT with a simple open shove UTG 15 BB -- +4 seat folded AK and showed me and said "only ace high" - o course I was like what are you doing. Then it turns out the BB folded AK aswel - lol We may aswel just be nits and fold ) Essentially if you take the line of limping or flatting AK to induce action behind, then you should be just going with it. The more players in then yes your pecentage goes down but your price is better. I am surprised you folded ) Posted by rancid
If there was any way to thin the field or have a way to win that wasnt at showdown vs 4 other raggedy hands I wouldnt have.
These games always amuse me hugely. As I have a reputation for getting lucky on the river
But the people I play against do not really understand the game. They bet £20 into £140 and will get stationed in multiple spots. They click it back OOP and 3 bet horrifically bad hands oop small. Its such a juicy game where If you have a good handle on their ranges and your perceived %s on improving your hand, you get paid massively.
You just make sure you lose the minimum unconnected, getting paid hugely through streets when connecting and improving, getting the opportunity to improve cheap.
I should find a few harder games so I get as good as some of you guys. I'd be lost at a solid table
You make posts about being a degenerate gambler, and about being amazing and always having top reads and just being the best in lots of awful live games, then you are so skillfull you can give up edges like having dem strong hands in a 5 way all in vs loose tards. SAY WUT
man up and put your chips over the line or sit out, stop using phrases that you clearly don't understand.
In Response to Re: Anyone feel like settling an argument? Good or bad fold @ NL200? : If there was any way to thin the field or have a way to win that wasnt at showdown vs 4 other raggedy hands I wouldnt have. These games always amuse me hugely. As I have a reputation for getting lucky on the river But the people I play against do not really understand the game. They bet £20 into £140 and will get stationed in multiple spots. They click it back OOP and 3 bet horrifically bad hands oop small. Its such a juicy game where If you have a good handle on their ranges and your perceived %s on improving your hand, you get paid massively. You just make sure you lose the minimum unconnected, getting paid hugely through streets when connecting and improving, getting the opportunity to improve cheap. I should find a few harder games so I get as good as some of you guys. I'd be lost at a solid table Posted by AMYBR
They can't be that bad if there getting you to limp fold AK ) So your saying you can find better spots and take there money. Nothing wrong with that but still think you should not be folding AK here if you can re load.
In Response to Re: Anyone feel like settling an argument? Good or bad fold @ NL200? : They can't be that bad if there getting you to limp fold AK ) So your saying you can find better spots and take there money. Nothing wrong with that but still think you should not be folding AK here if you can re load. Posted by rancid
Yeah as I said in earlier post, it is pretty bad. Should have got it in and reloaded.
They didnt get me to fold through being good though. Mostly through me being bad and not seeing the point in getting it in in such a high variance spot though. Will be reffering back to this mentality in future spots.
As I've said, cash is my weakest format due to generally being risk averse. Thanks for the input all (other than the obv).
Wow, a totally needless attack after I clearly state that my line is bad. Thats not like you at all is it fella? You are taking the time to make a post that is utter nonsense, not reflecting the substance or context of anything posted. You really are the worst kind of person and I have no time for you. Posted by AMYBR
Keep limp folding AK
Can we keep personal insults off the forum, thanks.
Re: Anyone feel like settling an argument? Good or bad fold @ NL200? posted at 24/9/2011 4:48 PM BST on SkyPoker.com beaneh Posts: 2904 First: 17/6/2009 Last: 24/9/2011 In Response to Re: Anyone feel like settling an argument? Good or bad fold @ NL200? : Wow, a totally needless attack after I clearly state that my line is bad. Thats not like you at all is it fella? You are taking the time to make a post that is utter nonsense, not reflecting the substance or context of anything posted. You really are the worst kind of person and I have no time for you. Posted by AMYBR Keep limp folding AK Can we keep personal insults off the forum, thanks. Posted by Mod_Machka
it's kinda dull having people come on the forum, say hi im awful, here's a hand I couldn't have played worse if I tried and then when they get help they explain that due to farcical and made up phrases that the OP doesn't understand he is deffo right......
dude don't let them drag you down to there level, your going to turn out as bad as they are. Nothing worse than levelling yourself versus bad oppo. Also you mention avoiding high varaince but you sit in a very high varaince game so therefore ie. you know what I am saying - dont' sit in I used to play turbo SNG's and enjoyed the high variance but it's not a great thing long term Posted by rancid
This is actually something that I have worried about a bit tbf.
Its not always as bad as the hand posted. The crazy guy blind betting always stmulates this action. He's a bit of a whizz at roulette apparently so he sits down and just goes crazy. I dont mind it usually, as your pretty much guarenteed to make money. I am hugely up in this game overall, have been going to it regularly for 2 or so years. Wouldnt miss it, but I'll definately take on board whats been said.
In Response to Re: Anyone feel like settling an argument? Good or bad fold @ NL200? : it's kinda dull having people come on the forum, say hi im awful, here's a hand I couldn't have played worse if I tried and then when they get help they explain that due to farcical and made up phrases that the OP doesn't understand he is deffo right...... it gets old quick. Posted by beaneh
I'm really tempted to get into this with you. But its pretty clear to anyone reading this thread that your posts are way out of context with the subject matter.
Also that you thought I held KK as you hadnt looked properly then edited your post.
I said that I was likely wrong from the start. Laying out my thought process to highlight the flaw in the line. But either way the thought process throughout, from everyone has been rational, based upon a particular approach.
I have quickly conceded that mathwise my line is bad, but set out the underlying reasons as to the line took. But even then stating that those reasons are flawed. I dont know why you choose to conduct yourself the way you do, its a shame.
But its uncalled for and totally off the mark. I guess youre just the type of person that enjoys taking the time out to be rude to people for no reason. The reasons mainly being your own.
Its inexcusable to me. Read the thread from beginning to end, mentally adding in what the mods deleted on your behalf. Classy huh?
Wrong or right, i speak honestly and respectfully. If you wish to continue this conversation feel free to respond to the PM I have sent you in regard to this, then we will not need to censor ourselves. I dont know if that will give you the attention you want though?
can you not just reload if you lose? THe only reason you should fold is if you have to stand up if you lose. Posted by offshoot
+1 This is my point too. It's a +ev situation where the pot odds are big (it's a multi-way pot where you have the effective stack) and you are likely to have the best hand (based on your own reads and the fact that you have ace king).
Cash poker is a never ending game where the best player is the play who gets their money in when they are a favorite to win the hand most often. You win money by making players fold better hands than yours or getting people to call when they have worse than you. In this situation you have the best hand and the effective stack. If you say the biggest stack at the table is 80BBs deep then ****, you don't even have to re-load if the buy in is 100BBs.
Even if this was a tournement I think you should shove for the win. Since even if you lose you go down to 120BBs which is a very respectable stack.
If this was a super tight table full of where the standard raise was 3xBB with premium hands, and you know that when a player cold-calls for half his stack he likely has AA and is trying to induce a re-shove. Then folding is the way to go. But from the way you described the table I don't think you will get many better spots than this unless you flop the world and the maniac picks up a piece too.
Was obv never intention to limp fold. Intention was to limp 3 bet blind opener, to pick up the blind bet and stations, getting it aipf vs opener or isolate to opener with all the dead money in there.
But when the action plays out this way we are effectively cold 4betting when 4 opponents cant/wont fold.
But the common theme is I should have been happy just getting it in with the covering stack regardless, likely 5 handed. Have to admit i dont fully agree with this, but it is the advice given by...well all.. so I would be foolish to ignore it. Which I wont.
Hi AMYBR. Sorry mate but this sounds fairly bad to me. You should be happy getting it in here. I know you say you dont rely on the maths side of things and you like to use your reads and your instinct but you cant hide the fact that the numbers show the profit made by shoving this over time.
I understand where you are coming from, but on this occassion i think you got it wrong. You limped to get action, when the action comes you cant fold just because someone else came along for the ride.
The math side of it that grantorino worked out should be the absolute key to this hand. Yep you will lose it more than you win it but the EV of it is in your favour so if you ran this over and over again you are the winner long term. I thought thats what this game was all about.
Comments
But if we take this line then we might aswell stop playing poker.
I have seen this recently in a MTT with a simple open shove UTG 15 BB -- +4 seat folded AK and showed me and said "only ace high" - o course I was like what are you doing. Then it turns out the BB folded AK aswel - lol
We may aswel just be nits and fold )
Essentially if you take the line of limping or flatting AK to induce action behind, then you should be just going with it. The more players in then yes your pecentage goes down but your price is better.
I am surprised you folded )
As said in previous post, its connected to my managment of variance and steam, which is a flaw obviously. I just dont love racing 5 way aipf with 1BB invested. But should really be a case of shrugging it off, reloading and moving on I guess.
I just hate losing big pots to those tards
Interesting thoughts from everyone and thankyou. I think I should be concentrating on extrecating my cash lines from my MTT lines (for sure) as they pretty much run in tandem.
These games always amuse me hugely. As I have a reputation for getting lucky on the river
But the people I play against do not really understand the game. They bet £20 into £140 and will get stationed in multiple spots. They click it back OOP and 3 bet horrifically bad hands oop small. Its such a juicy game where If you have a good handle on their ranges and your perceived %s on improving your hand, you get paid massively.
You just make sure you lose the minimum unconnected, getting paid hugely through streets when connecting and improving, getting the opportunity to improve cheap.
I should find a few harder games so I get as good as some of you guys. I'd be lost at a solid table
You are taking the time to make a post that is utter nonsense, not reflecting the substance or context of anything posted.
You really are the worst kind of person and I have no time for you.
EDIT: Nice edit when you realised you'd clearly misread a key element. You really think I'd fold K's there?
So your saying you can find better spots and take there money.
Nothing wrong with that but still think you should not be folding AK here if you can re load.
They didnt get me to fold through being good though. Mostly through me being bad and not seeing the point in getting it in in such a high variance spot though. Will be reffering back to this mentality in future spots.
As I've said, cash is my weakest format due to generally being risk averse. Thanks for the input all (other than the obv).
Re: Anyone feel like settling an argument? Good or bad fold @ NL200?
First: 17/6/2009
Last: 24/9/2011
Posted by AMYBR
Can we keep personal insults off the forum, thanks.
Nothing worse than levelling yourself versus bad oppo.
Also you mention avoiding high varaince but you sit in a very high varaince game so therefore ie.
you know what I am saying - dont' sit in
I used to play turbo SNG's and enjoyed the high variance but it's not a great thing long term
Its not always as bad as the hand posted. The crazy guy blind betting always stmulates this action. He's a bit of a whizz at roulette apparently so he sits down and just goes crazy. I dont mind it usually, as your pretty much guarenteed to make money. I am hugely up in this game overall, have been going to it regularly for 2 or so years. Wouldnt miss it, but I'll definately take on board whats been said.
I'm really tempted to get into this with you. But its pretty clear to anyone reading this thread that your posts are way out of context with the subject matter.
Also that you thought I held KK as you hadnt looked properly then edited your post.
I said that I was likely wrong from the start. Laying out my thought process to highlight the flaw in the line. But either way the thought process throughout, from everyone has been rational, based upon a particular approach.
I have quickly conceded that mathwise my line is bad, but set out the underlying reasons as to the line took. But even then stating that those reasons are flawed. I dont know why you choose to conduct yourself the way you do, its a shame.
But its uncalled for and totally off the mark. I guess youre just the type of person that enjoys taking the time out to be rude to people for no reason. The reasons mainly being your own.
Its inexcusable to me. Read the thread from beginning to end, mentally adding in what the mods deleted on your behalf. Classy huh?
Wrong or right, i speak honestly and respectfully. If you wish to continue this conversation feel free to respond to the PM I have sent you in regard to this, then we will not need to censor ourselves. I dont know if that will give you the attention you want though?
+1 This is my point too. It's a +ev situation where the pot odds are big (it's a multi-way pot where you have the effective stack) and you are likely to have the best hand (based on your own reads and the fact that you have ace king).
Cash poker is a never ending game where the best player is the play who gets their money in when they are a favorite to win the hand most often. You win money by making players fold better hands than yours or getting people to call when they have worse than you. In this situation you have the best hand and the effective stack. If you say the biggest stack at the table is 80BBs deep then ****, you don't even have to re-load if the buy in is 100BBs.
Even if this was a tournement I think you should shove for the win. Since even if you lose you go down to 120BBs which is a very respectable stack.
If this was a super tight table full of where the standard raise was 3xBB with premium hands, and you know that when a player cold-calls for half his stack he likely has AA and is trying to induce a re-shove. Then folding is the way to go. But from the way you described the table I don't think you will get many better spots than this unless you flop the world and the maniac picks up a piece too.
But what do I know, I'm a total nit
if your gonna limp with ak to trap, then go all the way with it
I woulda just made a standard preflop raise and gone from there
limp folding makes no sense
But when the action plays out this way we are effectively cold 4betting when 4 opponents cant/wont fold.
But the common theme is I should have been happy just getting it in with the covering stack regardless, likely 5 handed. Have to admit i dont fully agree with this, but it is the advice given by...well all.. so I would be foolish to ignore it. Which I wont.
It being cash and their ranges so wide, I guess I should get it in.
I am wired for tournament play, as my thinking throughout post likely highlights
As said from the start full ring cash is my weakest format.
I likely need to freshen up my perspective.
Thanks again.