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Pot Committed or can I lay down?

GlenelgGlenelg Member Posts: 6,600
edited September 2011 in The Poker Clinic
This was in the Orfordable team challenege last night. It was the first time I'd played 10 x handed tables and  I was treating it as a TEAM game and wanted to "ladder" to get points for the team.  IIRC there were about 20/25 people left and this would be for my tourney.  I was also DESPERATE to FT at least.  Thoughts
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Mr_Miyagi Small blind  1000.00 1000.00 35587.50
baker43 Big blind  2000.00 3000.00 22620.46
  Your hole cards
  • K
  • K
     
XX Raise  8000.00 11000.00 43107.31
cobras7 Fold     
betterha1f Fold     
Glenelg Call  8000.00 19000.00 8880.00
Quietman Fold     
Mr_Miyagi Fold     
baker43 Fold     
Flop
   
  • 8
  • 10
  • 5
     
XXBet  9500.00 28500.00 33607.31
      
Glenelg    ?? 
   
      
      
«1

Comments

  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited September 2011
    Shove pre flop, why would you ever not? He has made an awful raise size so can't fold now, flatting is amazing.

    If you take longer than 0.0001 seconds to call on flop it's a slowroll.
  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited September 2011

    shove pre he has to call anyway

    If you are flatting pre wtf do you even consider folding any flop, never mind this one.

    Your best chance of final tabling is by shoving pre. You wont get a better spot

  • pod1pod1 Member Posts: 4,377
    edited September 2011
    absolute no brainer here. dont mind flat and hope someone else comes along as long as its with the finger over the allin button as the flop is dealt.
  • jams88jams88 Member Posts: 694
    edited September 2011
    Tbh im not sure where the descion is. I can see why flat pre but this is a dream flop for you what are you losing to a set or AA? Get it in :)
  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited September 2011
    Got to be honest dont understand the thread.

    Why flat pre /> he's never folding.  Given pot size and hand strength, zero flop decision. 

    Glenelg on a wind up perhaps :p
  • Mr_MiyagiMr_Miyagi Member Posts: 2,031
    edited September 2011
    Lol if this is the hand I remember you folded and he showed QQ right?


    I don't care what team your playing for or what the points are, at this stage if you get KK you should be hoping to get it in and begging to get called.
  • pod1pod1 Member Posts: 4,377
    edited September 2011
    only think a flat to maybe bring one of the blinds along as well , at this stage i dont mind having them come in for 8k as well with kk. i got 8 bigs so more value the better, chances are i aint picking up a better hand than this.

  • dylan12dylan12 Member Posts: 2,343
    edited September 2011
    Hi Glen, you say in your opening post...

    "This was in the Orfordable team challenege last night. It was the first time I'd played 10 x handed tables and  I was treating it as a TEAM game and wanted to "ladder" to get points for the team.  IIRC there were about 20/25 people left and this would be for my tourney.  I was also DESPERATE to FT at least.  Thoughts"

    I think most will say that this is an easy shove pre flop with 8.5BB stack and that is very true, although the flat is something I don't agree with tbh but you done it so as played you have to call the flop bet. As it stands you have commited half your stack pre and it is a very easy call here.

    Going back to your comments, Personally I will never agree with the concept of laddering for the team, I play for myself and go FTW and hopefully pick up points for any team I would play in along the way.  You say you are desperate to FT, well im sorry but there is no better opportunity in doing that than in this position, you are odds on for a double up and you increase your chances of a FT appearance. If you folded as Mr Myiagi states then please fold pre if you are not willing to go all the way with this hand but anything less than getting all your chips in the middle is bad in these spots. 

    What im trying to get accross to you is that in this situation you can never fold hands like these especially with 20/25 players left and you wanting to FT. Never be scared to get your chips in there, if you lose - as you will at times - then don't worry about it, you will win way more times than you will lose in these spots!! Sorry if any of the above seems harsh Glen, I don't mean for it to, gl to you mate and just keep learning from the poker forum, your game will increasingly get better :) 
  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Pot Committed or can I lay down?:
    Lol if this is the hand I remember you folded and he showed QQ right? I don't care what team your playing for or what the points are, at this stage if you get KK you should be hoping to get it in and begging to get called.
    Posted by Mr_Miyagi
    If this is true OP needs to quit poker right now.
  • pod1pod1 Member Posts: 4,377
    edited September 2011
    is there anything wrong in flatting to get one of the blinds to come along as well? or is this too risky?
  • GlenelgGlenelg Member Posts: 6,600
    edited September 2011
    Never be scared to get your chips in there, if you lose - as you will at times - then don't worry about it, you will win way more times than you will lose in these spots!! Sorry if any of the above seems harsh Glen, I don't mean for it to, gl to you mate and just keep learning from the poker forum, your game will increasingly get better :) 
    Posted by dylan12

    THanks for the time taken to post all, esp Dylan! Not harsh enough Dylan! lol.  I knew the replies I would prob get as I knew at the time I had made a BIGG mistake. I was watching another table and def not using it as an excuse but just "felt" AA or set as it was a reall quick bet which was kinda unusual for him.  I folded and he "kindly" showed me QQ.   Missed FT by 2 but learnt a lot in playing 10 x handed.  Altho I blew this hand I feel my poker is DEF improving as a result of the clinic responses/criticism I get when I post. 
    pad

     
  • GlenelgGlenelg Member Posts: 6,600
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Pot Committed or can I lay down?:
    In Response to Re: Pot Committed or can I lay down? : If this is true OP needs to quit poker right now.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    LOL! Thanks Carl!   If theres one thing I NEVER do is quit. ! DEf admit to making a right dogs breakfast of the hand but I've learn from it.  I thought about not posting but wanted to share my shame!!  Really enjoying my poker and I know with a bit more practice I could enjoy it more!
    pad
  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited September 2011
    Huge respect glenelg.  You really are a top bloke :)

    FWIW, in the spirit of your last few posts - for me - this should always be a jam pre.  I dont really see a reason to bring in the blinds or give them equity.  In fact the huge pfr followed by your jam should just about make it impossible for them to be involved.

    No reason to get greedy here and run a gambit.  Lock up whats in there vs one opponent and get healthy.

    Opponent isnt folding any hand pre for your stack size, but you also run the risk of not getting value when he holds a weaker pocket pair or doesnt connect with a board.  KK is a gift this late in the game, you need to treat it as such, your stack being perfect for a solid double through vs opening raiser.

    Good skill out there sir :p
  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited September 2011

    To answer your original question

    You are pot commited and you can not or should not lay this down, team game or no team game

    I find it bizzare that you even considered folding this.

  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2011
    KK shove pre

    if you flat to induce action on the flop then what is the problem


    get it in
  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Pot Committed or can I lay down?:
    is there anything wrong in flatting to get one of the blinds to come along as well? or is this too risky?
    Posted by pod1
     flatting is fine, finks it's ok to be risky to acheive a possible treble up

    Depends how risk averse you are )
  • FLASHJONNYFLASHJONNY Member Posts: 2,537
    edited September 2011
    only1 thing GET IT IN
  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: Pot Committed or can I lay down?:
    In Response to Re: Pot Committed or can I lay down? : LOL! Thanks Carl!   If theres one thing I NEVER do is quit. ! DEf admit to making a right dogs breakfast of the hand but I've learn from it.  I thought about not posting but wanted to share my shame!!  Really enjoying my poker and I know with a bit more practice I could enjoy it more! pad
    Posted by Glenelg
    TBH it's never a bad thing to be tight in poker but there are some situations that just play themselves and even if you are up against AA then you HAVE to lose you stack and go out, and most times having the 2nd best hand in poker means you're winning. :)
  • pod1pod1 Member Posts: 4,377
    edited September 2011
    thats what i was thinking rancid,ok you double up by jamming.  but to get another 8k you are normally going to be doing it with worse hands than kk 3 way!
  • Ice_TigerIce_Tiger Member Posts: 1,533
    edited September 2011
    Full marks to OP for letting everyone know about his mistake.

    Obviously you are committed when you put in half your stack but you should have shoved pre as he was committed to call if you were all-in. Happy Days when you have KK.
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