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Could a bot be designed to beat, for example, Ivey?
bandini
Member Posts: 1,802
Or whoever's at the top of the on-line game right now? I don't know.
Let's say Redmond for the sake of an argument on Sky.
Read into how modern hedge funds work to see how mental it is that computers are basing things on patterns of behaviour that they have no reason to understand. But can still predict things through said patterns.
Why can't a computer programme be designed that works out 3 betting, 4 betting bluffing startegies of Redmond? Good as Redmond is, a computer, with the right programming, will compute the requisite information and adapt within nano seconds, no?
I'll be honest, I'm pretty thick. But I've a mate that's quite high up in the computing world who reckons a computer programme can work out how best to win at Fantasy Football. He's almost certain of this. And Poker's a lot more mathematic than that.
And, however debatable, Deep Blue beat that Russian kiddie at chess.
I'm scared and want to be proven wrong. I'm a savage.
Let's say Redmond for the sake of an argument on Sky.
Read into how modern hedge funds work to see how mental it is that computers are basing things on patterns of behaviour that they have no reason to understand. But can still predict things through said patterns.
Why can't a computer programme be designed that works out 3 betting, 4 betting bluffing startegies of Redmond? Good as Redmond is, a computer, with the right programming, will compute the requisite information and adapt within nano seconds, no?
I'll be honest, I'm pretty thick. But I've a mate that's quite high up in the computing world who reckons a computer programme can work out how best to win at Fantasy Football. He's almost certain of this. And Poker's a lot more mathematic than that.
And, however debatable, Deep Blue beat that Russian kiddie at chess.
I'm scared and want to be proven wrong. I'm a savage.
Comments
Chess isnt infinitely more complex than poker. chess is a solved game, the best chess player will win every time. The same can not be said for poker. Poker has way more unknown variables.
:-)
I'm joking and am on your side. But I've a friend who's adamant that a computer could pick out the patterns and adapt to his opponent, which, let's face it, is exactly what the best HU players do?
Like I say, I'm thick, but my mate is considerably more intelligent than I am and thinks it's possible. I might link him into this if the thread gets heavy, my sincere hope is we can prove him wrong.
Chess is math and Deep Blue beat Kasparov.
Poker is a % math. But % human too. I'd like to think Deep Blue, or similar, couldn't beat a human. But it's moot at minimum?
A competent player would outplay any Bot fairly quickly. The Bot could be adjusted (or learn) but it would be just outplayed in a different way.
The difference between poker and chess is that chess isn't about maths, it's about logic. Chess isn't solved as such in the same way something like checkers is. To "solve" chess and play the perfect game the computer would need to analyse in the order of 10^120 or 1 followed by 120 zeroes (which would take 10^90 years to calculate).
Poker is partly about maths but as offshoot said, if the Bot relied purely on maths then it's easy to make it do the wrong play.
This is what chess Grandmasters do to beat chess bots. They make a move that the computer overvalues and is mathematically forced to do what the Grandmaster wants given the Grandmaster the edge he needs.
however they can and have beat (or maintained level) lower levels elsewere
infact im 99% sure on a site i used to play on 3 years or so back a bot was multi tabling about 18 tables at 0.25-0.50 limit omaha
these are things that a programme could have info on you as a player:
#Do you play suited cards and call a lot to hit flushes
#Do you shove with mid pairs or high pairs
#Do you bet the pot with top pair
#Do you call with Rag As then shove when you hit or check then shove
#Do you use the preset betting amount buttons which gives you 2x 3x 4x allin how often these are pressed will produce a pattern. Say you have pk 10s and always bet 4x the bb because the preset button is there if it wernt you prob would bet different amounts constantly, taking out the predictability.
even with just these small amount of choices it would be very easy to recorded a pattern especialy if you do the same thing often, maybe players that dont play the same constantly and mix up there game are less predictable. New players wont have this info recorded so would be more difficult to predict just as if you know a player well and how he plays himself can be predictable at times. When ever you play a game with someone you have played before you take notes and a programme would do the same but with a much better memory and more acuracy.
how many times have you played solitare with the marbles you move around on a cross pattern, after so many goes you know the pattern and win everytime. Cos you can beat the system and computers have a system that is also predictable so for those of you that say it cant be beaten, anything with a pattern can be. Nothing is random apart from a players mind and even that subconcioiusly is not.
Also if you have ever played a poker nl game on a console or likewise you are in effect playing a series of bot characters and some of them are hard to beat others easy because of there patterns of play.
The Bots around (GOOGLE SHANKY BOT) CAN AND DO RULE THE MICRO TABLES ANYTHING UPTO ABOUT 10NL on bodog tilt (when it was running) and several of the ipoker skins that it plays on but putting anything together that is going to seriously challenge the likes of ivey over 5000 hands say aint gonna happen for the near future.
Chess as well has 32 pieces which all have set moves which you can see what the other person is planning as you can see his peices as well as your own poker is a completely differing mindset.
There are so many things programmers could use to make them better:
they could store hand histories,
they could go into hand histories and see hands mucked at showdown,
they could be programmed to play differently against different types of players,
they could be the ones mixing up the play just like top players,
they could use all of the above to make the best decision possible and be less predictable, just like many of the top players do.
Poker sites will have to keep ahead of the game...
I.e. if after 20-30 mins, it figured out you were being tight aggressive, it would play the best way to combat that, but if you noticed it was doing this and you changed your game, then the bot would change it's game also.
you can play ne cards a number of ways. even the best computer can not predict wot cards you have.