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NL8 shove dilemma

PystermanPysterman Member Posts: 187
edited October 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Pysterman Small blind  £0.04 £0.04 £7.21
philc8502 Big blind  £0.08 £0.12 £3.21
 Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
   
er425 Fold     
XXX Raise  £0.40 £0.52 £7.51
Jono_Brwr Fold     
JGIBBRFC Fold     
Pysterman Raise  £1.12 £1.64 £6.09
philc8502 Fold     
XXX All-in  £7.51 £9.15 £0.00
Pysterman
Would you call this readless?

With reads, when would you call this at this level?
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Comments

  • jugglegeekjugglegeek Member Posts: 623
    edited October 2011
    I'd make the call. If he has aces or kings then he should be betting about £4 to give the illusion of fold equity to try and make you shove with jacks or tens. This type of 4-bet shove from £1.16 to £7.91 just looks like AK to me. Of course if he shows up with AA or KK then you must make notes not to fall for this again.
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  • ybyb Member Posts: 1,471
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:
    I'd make the call. If he has aces or kings then he should be betting about £4 to give the illusion of fold equity to try and make you shove with jacks or tens. This type of 4-bet shove from £1.16 to £7.91 just looks like AK to me. Of course if he shows up with AA or KK then you must make notes not to fall for this again.
    Posted by jugglegeek
    how often do you think people put more than half their stack in preflop and then fold?
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  • PystermanPysterman Member Posts: 187
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:
    I'd make the call. If he has aces or kings then he should be betting about £4 to give the illusion of fold equity to try and make you shove with jacks or tens. This type of 4-bet shove from £1.16 to £7.91 just looks like AK to me. Of course if he shows up with AA or KK then you must make notes not to fall for this again.
    Posted by jugglegeek
    I did call. He had AA.

    Just made the move up to NL8 from NL4. Not a successful one at all. I just keep running into better hands when I have good ones and I don't believe my opponents' raises. Despite what people on other threads have said, I'm convinced NL8 is harder than NL4, or at least it plays differently.

    I'm back down to NL4 to rebuild my bankroll. Somewhat depressing.





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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2011
    Are you really 3 bet folding if the answer is yes don't 3 bet
    If your 3 betting with QQ, which is fine you should know what you are going to do before you 3 bet against this oppo

    If you have no idea of oppo 4 bet shoving range then you can fold - AA/KK will turn up enough of the time to make it a good fold long term


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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67 Member Posts: 3,615
    edited October 2011
    Provided i havnt commited too much by 3 bettin with QQ then i will usually fold to a 4 bet shove cos ive found over a long period of time they always show AA or KK here , so in this instance i woulda folded
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  • bolly580bolly580 Member Posts: 603
    edited October 2011

    not beliving your opponents raises sounds like NL4 itus, get so used to poor players shovin with nothin when you move up youve gotten into a habbit of calling lightly

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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited October 2011
    <100 bb's I NEVER fold here.
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  • PystermanPysterman Member Posts: 187
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:
    not beliving your opponents raises sounds like NL4 itus, get so used to poor players shovin with nothin when you move up youve gotten into a habbit of calling lightly
    Posted by bolly580
    I don't think I was calling lightly in this spot, but yes, I agree. I know I have made a few mistakes lately. But this seems to back up my view that NL8 plays harder than NL4, despite some people saying they play identically. When I move back up I will definitely have to adjust my play and show more respect (or at least pay much more attention to what players are doing as I have definitely come across some crazy fish at NL8). 

    It's interesting that opinions seem to be split as to whether I made the correct play here. It makes me feel a bit better that some of you more experienced players would have done the same thing.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:
    <100 bb's I NEVER fold here.
    Posted by Dudeskin8

    Dude,

     So you think AK and worse will turn up here more often than AA/KK in this 4 bet shove situation ?




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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited October 2011
    call. Even if he has AA and you make a note, this doesnt always mean you shouldnt call next time he does it.

    3b/f may be ok if you know he flats a lot with worse and his raising range crushes you, but I wouldnt make a habit of it without very good reads. If as debdobs says this is usually the case maybe you can do it readless

    Also your 3b is way too small
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:
    call. Even if he has AA and you make a note, this doesnt always mean you shouldnt call next time he does it. 3b/f may be ok if you know he flats a lot with worse and his raising range crushes you, but I wouldnt make a habit of it without very good reads. If as debdobs says this is usually the case maybe you can do it readless Also your 3b is way too small
    Posted by grantorino

    But without reads is it not best to always assume a 4 bet shove is KK/AA until proven otherwise ? 
    Think you really need to have there ranges spot on. 
    I don't think it's very good assuming all 4 bet shoves at NL4/NL8 are AK & worse, seriously levelling yourself in these spots.
    You need and must have some notes down on how they play to give you some indication of there ranges, even if you have only seen a few orbits. Even so called fish know they must 4 bet shove AA and KK )

    If oppo ranges 4 bet shove 10's+ then yeah no problem stick it in

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  • The_Don90The_Don90 Member Posts: 9,814
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:
    call. Even if he has AA and you make a note, this doesnt always mean you shouldnt call next time he does it. 3b/f may be ok if you know he flats a lot with worse and his raising range crushes you, but I wouldnt make a habit of it without very good reads. If as debdobs says this is usually the case maybe you can do it readless Also your 3b is way too small
    Posted by grantorino
    +1 3 bet needs to be Nearer £2 imo
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited October 2011
    Ranny we're 90bb's deep here, we can't 3bet fold that deep lol.

    Like Gran said make note but still call next time lolz.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:
    Ranny we're 90bb's deep here, we can't 3bet fold that deep lol. Like Gran said make note but still call next time lolz.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    Yeah my first post was if your not calling a shove don't 3 bet but hey ho - kinda gone off the rails a bit here with this one :s I was more thinking playing deeper, we should not just assume it's going to be AK or worse at NL4/NL8

    but anyways...if both players are deeper should this change your 3 bet,4 bet, 5 bet range ? If it does then how does it affect the range you put you oppo on :s




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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited October 2011
    Yh deeper it plays very different but not till like >150bb maybe more.
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