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Min raises from SB......why?????

waynecwaynec Member Posts: 1,023
edited November 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Am I missing something here but recently there seems to be a trend in the SB/early position min raising with limpers in the pot, I have seen this not just at 10nl but 20/30nl. Being out of postion surely if you have a hand you want to be at least heads up not facing a 3/4 way pot, IMO the min raise just gives all the limpers value/odds to call so. even with AA it would be unwise to min raise with a multi-way pot.

I will admit I am not a fan of min raising but!!!!! if I am missing something I need to be educated, your thoughts on the matter please?
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited November 2011
    If u are really coolllllll minraising is d nuts
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  • NColleyNColley Member Posts: 1,178
    edited November 2011
    they prob saw a hand on tv where it worked and so they assume its the way they should play.
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  • DrSharpDrSharp Member Posts: 1,213
    edited November 2011
    If they do it everytime then play back at them. It tilts me slightly too!

    The other thing that tilts me is there will be a pot of 10xbb's and then the flop comes and someone open bets 1xbb on a dry board.
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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67 Member Posts: 3,615
    edited November 2011
    This is defo an area of the game that seems to be a new trend , i do indeed do it myself and see it as pot building with suited connectors , if i hit then i have far more oppos in the pot who may have hit smaller than me but still be willing to play their hand , whereas if i 3x or 4x raised pre i may get only 1 caller or none at all.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited November 2011
    I can't think of a goof reason to min raise in cash in sb

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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67 Member Posts: 3,615
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    I can't think of a goof reason to min raise in cash in sb
    Posted by rancid
    I just gave you a reason ;)
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why????? : I just gave you a reason ;)
    Posted by debdobs_67
    reverse logic, just inflating the pot in case you hit big doesn't seem right tbh
    surely your just giving more players better odds and also infalting the pot for everybody else who may hit big

    You could just play higher limits and limp



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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8 Member Posts: 6,228
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    This is defo an area of the game that seems to be a new trend , i do indeed do it myself and see it as pot building with suited connectors , if i hit then i have far more oppos in the pot who may have hit smaller than me but still be willing to play their hand , whereas if i 3x or 4x raised pre i may get only 1 caller or none at all.
    Posted by debdobs_67
    Isn't this more optimal as you get it heads up and probably IP with betting lead so you have much more control so can c-bet if you miss and also maybe flop a big hand/draw. If you just minraise pre what's the point there'll either be say 5bbs in the middle or 10 not a massive difference and also you're essentially just hoping to get lucky which I can't think is +EV.
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  • Batkin88Batkin88 Member Posts: 1,682
    edited November 2011

    I wouldn't do it but in a pot with 3 or 4 limpers and your sitting tere with 5 6 of hearts it could make sense it the BB is very aggro as they may just shove the bb taking the limpers money without your min raise but that can only really be beneficial in a deepstack tournament. I can't think of any reason good enough apart from slighlty what debdobs says but i still wouldnt do it

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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited November 2011

    Its a pointless raise, it achieves nothing at all, other than building a pot when your OOP. Which is stupid imo

    I agree that the 1bb bet into a pot of 10bbs post flop is totally tilting too. Its usually a pure bluff, or a way to try to get a cheap turn card on a draw, but can sometimes be a bet to induce (trapping with a monster) i generaly raise it out of spite anyway, and this works alot in HU turbo sngs!

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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited November 2011
    To answer OPs original question, no you are not missing something, 99.99% chance they are just bad players


    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why????? : Isn't this more optimal as you get it heads up and probably IP with betting lead so you have much more control so can c-bet if you miss and also maybe flop a big hand/draw. If you just minraise pre what's the point there'll either be say 5bbs in the middle or 10 not a massive difference and also you're essentially just hoping to get lucky which I can't think is +EV.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    I dont disagree with most of this but there is a huge difference in having 5BB instead of 10BB in pre as pots increase exponentially as you bet through the streets

    Minraising oop sounds bad to me, even though I can see some good reasons to min open on the button in certain games, and I have seen very good players min or very close to min open their button as standard

    I think minraising small pocket pairs might make sense sometimes, as we either flop a hand we go broke with or give up and lose only 2BB. The need to have some balance  in our play would stop this being an option usually. I dont see much reason to do it with suited connectors, we dont flop a made hand often enough, I'd prefer have a better chance of getting people to fold
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG Member Posts: 7,155
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    To answer OPs original question, no you are not missing something, 99.99% chance they are just bad players In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why????? : I dont disagree with most of this but there is a huge difference in having 5BB instead of 10BB in pre as pots increase exponentially as you bet through the streets Minraising oop sounds bad to me, even though I can see some good reasons to min open on the button in certain games, and I have seen very good players min or very close to min open their button as standard I think minraising small pocket pairs might make sense sometimes, as we either flop a hand we go broke with or give up and lose only 2BB. The need to have some balance  in our play would stop this being an option usually. I dont see much reason to do it with suited connectors, we dont flop a made hand often enough, I'd prefer have a better chance of getting people to fold
    Posted by grantorino
    Debdobs is the 0.01% exception then :)
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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67 Member Posts: 3,615
    edited November 2011
    DEFO the exception , oh wait a minute , i see this done very regularly at 10/20nl cash , so maybe i aint the exception.

    Tbh tho there are alot of cash players at my tables who do this.
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  • BigRonnieCBigRonnieC Member Posts: 186
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    If they do it everytime then play back at them. It tilts me slightly too! The other thing that tilts me is there will be a pot of 10xbb's and then the flop comes and someone open bets 1xbb on a dry board.
    Posted by DrSharp
    This is worse... far worse....

    Hand History #434220406 (15:35 06/11/2011)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancecotty2hottSmall blind 25.0025.007900.00woods1963Big blind 50.0075.005130.00 Your hole cardshttps://www.skypoker.com/img/site/club.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="club">7https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/spade.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="spade">A   blueboy702Raise 100.00175.006555.00BigRonnieCCall 100.00275.00782.50DJ_LOON_EFold    https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/hhdealer.gif'); padding-bottom: 0px; background-color: transparent; margin: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 18px; background-position: 100% 100%; padding-top: 0px; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial" class="dealer">lifesgoodCall 100.00375.001715.00cotty2hottFold    woods1963Call 50.00425.005080.00Flop  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="diamond">5
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/diamond.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="diamond">10
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/club.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #000000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="club">9
       woods1963Check    blueboy702Bet 100.00525.006455.00BigRonnieCFold    lifesgoodCall 100.00625.001615.00woods1963Fold    Turn  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="heart">9
       blueboy702Bet 200.00825.006255.00lifesgoodCall 200.001025.001415.00River  
    • https://www.skypoker.com/img/site/heart.gif'); text-align: center; padding-bottom: 10px; background-color: #ffffff; margin: 0px 0px 0px 2px; padding-left: 0px; width: 15px; padding-right: 0px; display: block; background-position: 1px 100%; color: #dd0000; font-size: 0.9em; padding-top: 0px; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial; border: #9bc3e5 1px solid" class="heart">J
       blueboy702Bet 1025.002050.005230.00lifesgoodAll-in 1415.003465.000.00blueboy702Fold    lifesgoodMuck    lifesgoodWin 3075.00 3075.00lifesgoodReturn 390.000.003465.00
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    DEFO the exception , oh wait a minute , i see this done very regularly at 10/20nl cash , so maybe i aint the exception. Tbh tho there are alot of cash players at my tables who do this.
    Posted by debdobs_67
    Not trying to imply you are a bad player debs. But their are loads of bad players at 20NL, and I cant see why good ones would minraise when they would be oop lots. Most of the players who minraise will be obv bad after viewing them for a few hands, the few who are able to play a bit should be obv too, so exploit both accordingly
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  • waynecwaynec Member Posts: 1,023
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    This is defo an area of the game that seems to be a new trend , i do indeed do it myself and see it as pot building with suited connectors , if i hit then i have far more oppos in the pot who may have hit smaller than me but still be willing to play their hand , whereas if i 3x or 4x raised pre i may get only 1 caller or none at all.
    Posted by debdobs_67

    Ok I can see your logic here in position with connectors or set mining with a wee PP, out of position IMO it must be better to appear strong than fishing which this min raise seems to indicate, and how often does a weak hand land you in trouble even when you think you have hit the board hard. 

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  • Brian666Brian666 Member Posts: 62
    edited November 2011
    1. to create a pot
    2. you raised and fish will fold if they miss so you can still rep something
    3. if they fold you know they are bad
    4. if they call you know they will call when you get a bigger hand
    5. they dont care that you are in SB they just see their hand
    6. if you think they will fold to a bigger raise then raise with a wider range
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  • waynecwaynec Member Posts: 1,023
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    1. to create a pot 2. you raised and fish will fold if they miss so you can still rep something 3. if they fold you know they are bad 4. if they call you know they will call when you get a bigger hand 5. they dont care that you are in SB they just see their hand 6. if you think they will fold to a bigger raise then raise with a wider range
    Posted by Brian666

    "you can rep something" What can you rep? If you had a hand such as big A or high PP you would not be min raising unless you miss clicked.

    "Create a pot" Im creating a pot with my money in when the odds due to position are against me

    "If they call"!!!!! any player who can add up will work out you have the odds to call, 1bb to win 4+BB is worth a call, so you min raise with AA because you have the" bigger hand" and you have a 4 way pot do your maths AA is very vunrable now

    " if you think they will fold to a bigger raise then raise with a wider range" Where is the benifit of min raising with a wider range out of position? It comes back to the question of the min raise, if they are calling raising either pump it or dump it!

    Im sorry but your theory is floored IMO apart from pot building for some reason




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  • Brian666Brian666 Member Posts: 62
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why????? : "you can rep something" What can you rep? If you had a hand such as big A or high PP you would not be min raising unless you miss clicked. "Create a pot" Im creating a pot with my money in when the odds due to position are against me "If they call" !!!!! any player who can add up will work out you have the odds to call, 1bb to win 4+BB is worth a call, so you min raise with AA because you have the"  bigger hand"  and you have a 4 way pot do your maths AA is very vunrable now " if you think they will fold to a bigger raise then raise with a wider range" Where is the benifit of min raising with a wider range out of position? It comes back to the question of the min raise, if they are calling raising either pump it or dump it! Im sorry but your theory is floored IMO apart from pot building for some reason
    Posted by waynec
    you make alot starting hand assumptions
    1. who says you have to rep QQ+ AQ+ - what about repping the straights and flushes
    2. odds are not posistion based - odds are odds, implied, expected, direct or otherwise being 1st to act doesnt change the odds - only that you have to act first - you are bluffing here so what the helldo odds have to do with it
    3. Who said min rasie with AA
    4. read again - if you are min rasing for value then therefore you expect them to fold to larger rasies so therefore raise with wider range as bluffs


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  • waynecwaynec Member Posts: 1,023
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why?????:
    In Response to Re: Min raises from SB......why????? : you make alot starting hand assumptions 1. who says you have to rep QQ+ AQ+ - what about repping the straights and flushes 2. odds are not posistion based - odds are odds, implied, expected, direct or otherwise being 1st to act doesnt change the odds - only that you have to act first - you are bluffing here so what the helldo odds have to do with it 3. Who said min rasie with AA 4. read again - if you are min rasing for value then therefore you expect them to fold to larger rasies so therefore raise with wider range as bluffs
    Posted by Brian666
    I understand your logic Brian post flop and min raise for value when your ahead or repping, however my question is post flop from the SB, a postion IMO at 8/10/20nl I would want to be bluffing from or in a multi way pot with any hand in the SB.
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