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Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused?

AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
edited November 2011 in The Poker Clinic
50/£1 cash 8 handed.  Have just less than £250 after binking set over set.  Tables pretty loose.

UTG has straddled UTG+1 calls.  I find KK on the button, make it £12 with the Blinds and straddles in there.  My image is normally pretty solid, so its never really going to be seen as anything but genuine strength to the regs @ table.

Fold round to UTG+1 who calls the extra £10.  Never seen this guy before, have no info on him, first pot I've seen him play.

£29 in pot.  Flop comes  9910r.  He instanly reaches for chips, betting pot.  I have no idea what he has, but am never folding to one bet.  Dont really like a raise here myself.  Flat and go to turn.

£89 in pot.  9910 9.  I obviously feel much more comfortable now.  But then he bets pot again, his hand is shaking really bad, so much so that another player at the table notices it and has a dig at him for it.  But if he has quads I'm going to pay him off anyway.  He hasnt showed any signs of slowing down, and wont fold here if I put him in anyway - if he has a 9/ a 10/ or Js through A's.  So I dont see the point in raising.

£270 in pot.  We both have roughly same back around £120.  9910  9  10.  He quickly ships the rest.  Know I'm beat but call because I'm an idiot.   He shows 10J.

I dont often slowplay anything, generally lose to much value.  But figured this is a safe enough spot to.  Mainly as our hand is disguised, he isnt going to stop firing and wont fold a FH @ turn.  Have to say my game is hugely off par lately as havent had a winning session for nearly 3 months and just am not playing well or seeing straight at all.

I definately should have shipped turn, outcome regardless.  As played, should be snap fold river right....?  Can we find an excuse to call? other than pot size and stack behind?
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Comments

  • EvilPinguEvilPingu Member Posts: 3,462
    edited November 2011
    The only hands you're beating with a call are JJ and QQ, and a bluff with something like AK. Can understand calling the flop, not sure if he would've bet with the 9 in his hand there, considering he's likely only going to call your raise pre-flop with A9 and 99, doubt he'd bet (and probably not the full pot if he did) with either of them, so probably putting him on a 10.

    The 9 on the turn means he obviously can't have 99, A9 is unlikely from the way he's played it but if he's got that, or pocket 10's then so be it. I think with the stack sizes, a shove on the turn is definitely the best (only IMO) move, he's probably not folding for £120 to win a pot of around £500 and you're probably ahead most of the time.

    As for "can we find an excuse to call?", I think that he could be making that bet with a quite a few of hands - maybe a pocket pair below 9's which have been counterfeitted and the only way for him to win is to stick the rest of his stack in and hope you fold maybe another pocket pair which has also been counterfeitted. That's the only reason that I would really even consider calling in that spot, and would almost certainly still fold anyway because it's pretty unlikely and you would lose money over time making that call, I reckon.

    It's an awkward spot but I think it's a check behind or fold on the river there as soon as the second 10 comes down, because you can't know you're ahead if you make the call there, especially if you've been putting him on the 10 all the way through the hand. Ultimately, you're only in that spot because you didn't re-raise on the turn, so unlucky but don't make the same mistake next time :)
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited November 2011
    Its just plain bad fullstop (by me).  He'd have shut down for showdown with a smaller PP.  When 9 hits turn, we cant really be afraid of anything.  Well we can, but it's immaterial to the eventual pot size as - if we werent going broke somehow - we are for sure now.

    He clearly had a 10 to me in the hand from turn, slight chance of a 9, but as said becomes immaterial mostly at turn.  Cant really put him on any real range of hands going to the flop.  Its a really loose game where any 2 plays for most part.  Although hadnt played him before, my expectation was no different.

    Once he leads pot at turn its an auto jam.  I got clever and punished.  If it plays the way I should, table shares my disgust when 500bb's are in at the turn and he binks his 1 outer.  As it plays out, I have to make a bad call and muck my hand.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited November 2011
    jam turn

    ul

    as played 

    oppo could have JJ/QQ there - how do you fold  :s Only way your folding is live reads, even then it's a very difficult fold
    The way you played the hand you trapped yourself )
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused?:
    jam turn ul as played  oppo could have JJ/QQ there - how do you fold  :s Only way your folding is live reads, even then it's a very difficult fold The way you played the hand you trapped yourself )
    Posted by rancid
    Indeed.

    Left myself pretty much having to call from the way it played.  Pretty much discounted J's or Q's after he flatted the straddle pre.  He can really only hold a 10 I felt.  Lack the dicipline to sigh fold at minute.  Not convinced its the right spot for it either..........?  Not sure.  Although I'd discounted PP's I think it was the last "click and pray" thought that went through my mind :p

    Would truly rather be sucked out on after moneys in than left pot stuck and putting money in dead.  Ahh well, only went on lo lose 4 more BI's........................

    Who sigh folds river when pot/stacks have got to this size?  Most I guess.  Just didnt have it in me that time.

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  • lynx3ffectlynx3ffect Member Posts: 452
    edited November 2011
    why jam turn? not afraid of anything other than a ten and lets him carry on spazzin with worse PP or whatever

    played find until river when it shud be epic sigh fold
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited November 2011
    Jam turn as he cant fold a 10 or PP and is never bluffing.  He has a 9 its not an issue just a cooler.

    Once he leads pot again money should be in.  Without shoving here our value relies on him making another mistake on the river.  Plus he can wriggle away when bad card falls.  Say he has 88 or 10Q and river comes A or K.  Will he go into c/c mode?  Perhaps c/f after such strong bets have been called.  Either way we are gambling that he  auto stacks off on river which he might not.  Wheras I dont think he'll ever fold turn with a host of hands which he pots it with twice.

    I think lol.  Seems optimum on paper :p  Honestly cant see straight.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused?:
    why jam turn? not afraid of anything other than a ten and lets him carry on spazzin with worse PP or whatever played find until river when it shud be epic sigh fold
    Posted by lynx3ffect
    You could let oppo carry on leading into you but what hand pays u on river that doesn't on turn

    Only a house will pay you anyhow, put them in the tough spot of folding a house, force a mistake )
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE Member Posts: 2,188
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused?:
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused? : You could let oppo carry on leading into you but what hand pays u on river that doesn't on turn Only a house will pay you anyhow, put them in the tough spot of folding a house, force a mistake )
    Posted by rancid
    why would you want villain to fold a house? i think anything but calling is probably bad especially as we have no reads. super sigh river learn to hold.
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused?:
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused? : why would you want villain to fold a house? i think anything but calling is probably bad especially as we have no reads. super sigh river learn to hold.
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    Was hoping you'd weigh in on this in honesty Lol Raise.  In hand flatting turn did feel right as he showed no sign of slowing down.  Didnt see the point in waving a flag when he hadnt seen any cause to be worried, feeling strongly he goes broke on all rivers but an A.  But also didnt feel he'd see any reason to fold turn if I put him in.

    Fellow reg folded a 10, so he is drawing to 1 out.  He has a 9, I stack off reasonably comfortably, its a risk we assess at turn, mostly ignoring/discounting it.

    Am not being offhand when I say I cant see straight or read well at moment.  If I could learn to hold I'd be very wealthy.  Cant win anything just now, its bordering on unbearable.

    Lol_Raise:  Fold River?  Or click and pray some dominated PP.  As said trapped self.  getting 4/1 on call?  Call reload...?  Last thoughts were J's or Q's + paying off for info in future.  But pretty much knowing river was brutal.
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused?:
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused? : why would you want villain to fold a house? i think anything but calling is probably bad especially as we have no reads. super sigh river learn to hold.
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    I mean make a mistake as in call the turn jam with a under house, come on I am not that bad )
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused?:
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused? : Was hoping you'd weigh in on this in honesty Lol Raise.  In hand flatting turn did feel right as he showed no sign of slowing down.  Didnt see the point in waving a flag when he hadnt seen any cause to be worried, feeling strongly he goes broke on all rivers but an A.  But also didnt feel he'd see any reason to fold turn if I put him in. Fellow reg folded a 10, so he is drawing to 1 out.  He has a 9, I stack off reasonably comfortably, its a risk we assess at turn, mostly ignoring/discounting it. Am not being offhand when I say I cant see straight or read well.  If I could learn to hold I'd be very wealthy.  Cant win anything just now, its bordering on unbearable. Lol_Raise:  Fold River?  Or click and pray some dominated PP.  As said trapped self.  getting 4/1 on call?  Call reload...?  Last thoughts were J's or Q's + paying off for info in future.  But pretty much knowing river was brutal.
    Posted by AMYBR
    The thing is I have had a couple so stay with me :s
    Oppo hands are shaking so oppo has something good ya, so your going to be facing a river shove 100%
    If it's AA then hey ho right ? So with oppo showing you live tells that he has it why not shove turn because if your contemplating folding to a river shove then you may aswel fold turn :s

    bit off the wall but hey....
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited November 2011
    No I'm never folding river.  Well I'll tank it if an A falls, but its the only card that entered my worryzone @ turn.

    In honesty I'm not sure on it.  Dont believe he ever folds turn with 9's full 10's.  Were not talking a meticulously thinking player.  That read is why I should have put him in there @ turn.  He's just nowhere near good enough to ever think he's crushed.

    Against a better player I pretty much always flat turn, to call allin on river, even in the far fetched scenario that he has A's, 10's or a 9.  Mainly down to the fact that a better player will find it so hard to give up, even when wary on river.  Will be auto jamming wider than a bad player (but yes not leading pot @ turn).

    This guy turned out bad enough to have the shakes at the 2nd nut board hand :p
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  • rancidrancid Member Posts: 5,945
    edited November 2011
    In Response to Re: Sigggggghhhhh auto fold river? Or can a call be excused?:
    No I'm never folding river.  Well I'll tank it if an A falls, but its the only card that entered my worryzone @ turn. In honesty I'm not sure on it.  Dont believe he ever folds turn with 9's full 10's.  Were not talking a meticulously thinking player.  That read is why I should have put him in there @ turn.  He's just nowhere near good enough to ever think he's crushed. Against a better player I pretty much always flat turn, to call allin on river, even in the far fetched scenario that he has A's, 10's or a 9.  Mainly down to the fact that a better player will find it so hard to give up, even when wary on river.  Will be auto jamming wider than a bad player (but yes not leading pot @ turn). This guy turned out bad enough to have the shakes at the 2nd nut board hand :p
    Posted by AMYBR
    maybe oppo was just nervous :)
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  • AMYBRAMYBR Member Posts: 3,432
    edited November 2011
    Yeah likely.  First time I'd seen him.  Nice of him to take the time to play one hand that hour to river 1 out me for 500bigs............................................... pfffffffffffffffffffffff :p
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  • grantorinograntorino Member Posts: 4,710
    edited November 2011
    with your reads shove turn, although I think calling would be the standard play

    As played I think river is a sighfold with your reads, but I prob call in game
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