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DYM - AJ, 4 handed have to shove?
Dudeskin8
Member Posts: 6,228
Button has about 1300, I have 1900.
| WOODSTER13 | Small blind | 150.00 | 150.00 | 6997.50 | |
| eschwege09 | Big blind | 300.00 | 450.00 | 1370.00 | |
| Your hole cards |
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| Dudeskin8 |
Comments
Ok really intrested in Shanxta and PF’s responses here
Are we folding because we are UTG, therefore only better will call AQ/AK
JC guide is at certain levels shove with x bigs because we don’t want to be blinded out, why does AJ feel ok in this spot.
How do we counter this with how the other oppo are playing Shanxs
If they are prone to call light do we fold, or if they tighter we can shove ?
If my posts only serve as a springboard to better understanding then I am more than happy to continue )
Easy fold You need jj + or ak to shove in that spot.
JC's whole DYM strategy is based on a sit and go book that does not have 1 page on DYM's where the ROI for winning far outways just making the cash which is why standard sng s are more aggro.
50% winner
30% 2nd
20% 3rd.
DYM 1st 33.3333%
2nd 33.3333%
3rd 33.33333%
His shoving ranges are terrible he gets told this because he shoves from any position with junk in a game of
survival and stack sizes and position.
He uses an agrresive style based on sng play which i guarentee isn't
even optimal for standard sng's.Im not going into detail if you wanna improve please search google for more reliable sources.
You seem like a nice guy and fair play for not bitting which tells me you dont have a big ego which is
a cool attribute to have.
There are many ways to skin a cat and your way isn't the most optimal by far although you
may be thinking im making money so there is nothing to fix.
Your blog was mean't for the benifit of others and theres some good points but the most important aspect
of sngs and dyms is endgame strategy.(Shoving and Calling ranges)
Factor these ranges with position-the amount of players to get your shove through weighed up with stacksizes and your almost there.
But so many times you shove with complete junk UTG to get through 3 players on the bubble when there is
no need to shove.
IF your telling people to shove any 2 which in certain spots there is, then atleast make it an isco
shove-say blind on blind,or 4 handed a shove to get through 2 players with the next lowest stack been the target.Also when your at 7 blinds ect you have very little fold equity so you need half decent hands as the chances of been called are alot higher meaning you need some sort of hand with equity to compete with a call.
Its not in my best interest to be telling people how to play em for when i play em edges decrease if everyone is
playing close to optimal.
This is my point though if you are teaching bad fundamentals for the benefit of others then is that any better then me not saying anything at all?
But now that you have said something i feel the need to correct your end game strategy as
all the new players who are reading your blog are getting some good points but your end game strategy
is gonna be a massive leak and all these newbies who dont run like u JC (GOD) may turn to other avenues.
So for the good of these new players i have to critisize 1 persons end game strategy.
Fair play if you disagree with my endgame strategy, you've been around the DYMs since I started here and your stats are impressive. I think there may be a bit of misinterpretation, to be honest. For example in your PM you said I advocate shoving ATC anytime I have 10BBs or less, I don't know where I've ever said this.
Your suggestion that the blog wasn't intended to help others is just crazy, tbh, of course it was, who do you think it was for the benefit of? Do you honestly believe I took the time to write that to install leaks in my opponents games? The blog is 100% honest and any mistakes in there strategy-wise are my own failings, not deliberate. The blog was intended to help some people and from the feedback I've had it has, so I am very happy with it.
Is that a suggestion that it wasnt.
Johnconnor quote "SkyPoker players will have seen me shove with absolute junk from any position on occasion." "The following table shows the stage where I think you are desperate and need to make a move before the blinds hit you once more (e.g. if your chip stack is lower than the one stated then I recommend shoving 8-3 UTG the next hand): "
You shove with junk in bad spot with 12-8 bbs on a consistant basis.
Remember taking notes is important.
I take note on opponents shoving ranges and stack to blind ratio so deny it and tighten up,
i help you and you make me look a fool.
Win win situation for you.
"
The following table shows the stage where I think you are desperate and need to make a move before the blinds hit you once more (e.g. if your chip stack is lower than the one stated then I recommend shoving 8-3 UTG the next hand):
Your chip stack:Big Blind:1100150140020017003002000400
This table is shaped by thousands of DYMs’ worth of experience but I recommend anyone to try out their own figures and am open to suggestions about how the figures might be improved. Also I should state that, while the above table is extremely useful as a guide, it is just that, a guide. Below is a non-exhaustive list of some of the factors that might affect your thinking when looking at these figures:
The presence of one or more micro stacks (i.e. virtually dead players) The presence of two or more maniacs who are showing no appreciation of DYM strategy and are constantly going to war with each other, regardless of the short stack at the table Still having a full table in the late stages. This is relatively rare but may prevent you from shoving the very worst hands as getting through 5 players is going to prove difficult The presence of an away player
While I am looking at the table, I want to mention a side issue relating to the clock in DYMs.
Because the blind levels are only 5 minutes and a hand could take a minute to play out, the following happens very frequently. I recommend this strategy during late game play:
If you are facing a shove/fold decision during the late stages of a DYM and there are 30 seconds or less left in the current level, then play the hand as though you are already in the next level.
This is because, to all intents and purposes, you actually are.
The above table is also useful for looking at when it is acceptable to call an all-in in the late stages.
Generally, of course, calling all-in is to be avoided and my general rule is to not do anything that is unnecessary (see the example earlier under ‘DYM Mindset’ about folding AA pre-flop).
However, when you reach the amounts stated in the table you are desperate and may need to call all-in if necessary.
This will often be a judgement call depending on your reads on the shover and the positions at the table but as a general guide, if I was desperate according to the table, I would call all-in with 88+, A10+ (see below for my ‘them or me’ exception where I would call with any 2 cards)."
When you shove from any position with no fold equity with any 2 or marginal hands what is the result?
When you find the answer it will be no fold equity,more chance of been called because we are shoving any position and no equity vs the opponents calling range because we are shoving with junk.
Also a short stacked players image is loose for the very reason he is short and the fact he needs to be
shoving wider anyway.
The point i was getting across is shoving any position with 5-7 blinds gives you less fold equity and more chance of been called.Factor 1 is the amount of players the shove has to get through giving you a higher% of been called and factor 2, the bigger stacks will call you more often as you have less fold equity vs there stack size.
Your fold equity is relative to the active stack size no matter how many blinds you have.
So in a standard sng it is vital to keep a good stack to maintain good fold equity giving you a better chance of
coming 1st for a bigger payoff.
Where as a dym is about survival with your only target been the nearest stack size to you.
When you are as short as on JCs guide then they're only usually 4 players left usually leaving
it between you and the other short stack as to cashing.So you do not need to challenge the table
only that 1 person for a vital 3rd place.
Yeah I hear ya !!
When using this guide you do have to factor in the other stack sizes and the situation at the table. It’s by no means a “This is what you do no matter what”
If only poker was that simple.
There’s no guide in the world that can factor in all the various table situations and tell you how to play each one, that would be a great selling book )
Question for you
Is it paramount to use ICM in DYM’s ? I am trying to get my head around it, but it’s a bit like rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
I mainly use sit and go wiz but you can use sng end game (power) tools aswell.
Plugging into icm calculators is just like using poker stove its a post game reviewing programme.
The concept of icm is bascically the more chips you have the less value a chips is worth and vise versa.
Thats why in another post i sais you basically have x-percentage of winning still after a fold in a spot with 4 players left.Where as i think grantorino did the exact maths by dividing the individual stack sizes by the total prize pool.
But as the more chips you have the less their value and the less chips you have the higher their value it is a lot closer than he calculated for this reason.
You can calculate these tourny equitys ,void of hand ranges with free online calculators like chillin icm.
http://www.chillin411.com/icmcalc.php