Idonkcallu makes an observation about the high rollers not c/folding these boards.....
U correctly (imo) spot flaws in the compariosn, but no1 has given any kinda reason why.
Stop turning perfectly good clinic threads into bickering wars, leave that to me amybr and beaneh.
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You're right IDONKCALLU.....sparce and james and co would never c/f Jacks on this board in their regular games, against their regular opponents, but the key thing that made Don make the pass is the opponent he is up against.
If sparce was playing nl4 against Lambert, he might well slow down on this turn.
Even Sparce can't change the hand his opponent is holding, all he can do is play the best he can against the range he puts Lambert on, and if he's beat, he's beat.
Sparce & co didn't beat nl4 by playing how you see them play @ nl500.......
"Different strategies, different needs" - JJ Brent!
Dont know why everyone thinks this hand is so great
Why does Lambert limp his btn?
Why does don put him solely on pps?
Why would lambert fold a pair on the flop?
Don makes a bad read and c/f turn and thats ok?
Lambert betting turn is questionable at best. Dont think he called flop to bluff him off an overpair on the turn. Dont hate it but its a protection bet where I dont think there is really need for one
Dont mean this as overly critical, but sounds to me everybody is levelling themselves about this hand
Do you c/f here ? On a wider scale if Don can find folds in these situations then all is good, but I think it would benefit him to b/f and not c/f What u fink !! Posted by rancid
i crai, or b/c
i refuse to fold jj on this board at 4nl, nit reg or no nit reg, prob on my own here...
Dont know why everyone thinks this hand is so great Why does Lambert limp his btn? Why does don put him solely on pps? Why would lambert fold a pair on the flop? Don makes a bad read and c/f turn and thats ok? Lambert betting turn is questionable at best. Dont think he called flop to bluff him off an overpair on the turn. Dont hate it but its a protection bet where I dont think there is really need for one Dont mean this as overly critical, but sounds to me everybody is levelling themselves about this hand Posted by grantorino
GT can you go into explaining this post please. im not following
In Response to Re: c/f an overpair @ NL4 : GT can you go into explaining this post please. im not following Posted by The_Don90
What are you not following? From your end, why is lambert btn limping range 22-99? Why does he only call the flop with a set? If so, why bet? Why is the 3 a bad turn card? Why is c/f turn best? Do you c/f 33/44 on turn if his range is a flopped set?
In Response to Re: c/f an overpair @ NL4 : What are you not following?
From your end,
why is lambert btn limping range 22-99?
Why does he only call the flop with a set?
If so, why bet? Why is the 3 a bad turn card?
Why is c/f turn best?
Do you c/f 33/44 on turn if his range is a flopped set? Posted by grantorino
right ive broken this up in quot to make it easier to respond to best as i can
More i think about it the less i think 99 is in his range tbh. Less because i believe at NL4 as many regs including myself believe its pointless to raise small pairs then miss set and have to shut down. Most of us would just limp call. Im not sure if Lambert is similar, i probably havent played him enough to know for sure. on the whole i know hes better than most of the players at NL4 so i dont see value in playing him.
If he flats he probably get another street of value. imo anyways.
the cbet was because i knew he had other hands in his range on the flop that dont have sets.
Tbh i wouldnt have cbetted 33 and 44 id probably not be comfortable about getting it in.
Again i play 33/44 completely diff as id have checked.
In Response to Re: c/f an overpair @ NL4 : right ive broken this up in quot to make it easier to respond to best as i can More i think about it the less i think 99 is in his range tbh. Less because i believe at NL4 as many regs including myself believe its pointless to raise small pairs then miss set and have to shut down. Most of us would just limp call. Im not sure if Lambert is similar, i probably havent played him enough to know for sure. on the wholei know hes better than most of the players at NL4 so i dont see value in playing him. If he flats he probably get another street of value. imo anyways. the cbet was because i knew he had other hands in his range on the flop that dont have sets. Tbh i wouldnt have cbetted 33 and 44 id probably not be comfortable about getting it in. Again i play 33/44 completely diff as id have checked. Posted by The_Don90
Nearly all 4nl regs who post here advocate opening on the btn with pps. When he limps why cant he have 87s, KTo or A4s as well as pps?
If he only calls flop with a set betting is terrible
In Response to Re: c/f an overpair @ NL4 : Nothing worse calls, our hand is too strong to bluff with Posted by grantorino
but hands such as KJ/A9/AT might also be in his range and do we wnat to give him a free card? Posted by The_Don90
Thought he didnt limp those?
If he does they have ~7% to beat you on turn. I would bet for value here all day, but if you think only sets call and hands with 7% equity that can improve to worse top pair hands will fold I think checking is much better than betting, unless you think he never ever puts in more money unless he turns a bigger pair than a J
EDIT: Even if you give 2 free cards its still going to be only something like 12-14% to outdraw you
In Response to Re: c/f an overpair @ NL4 : Why ?? Posted by stien
Nothing worse calls, our hand is too strong to bluff with Posted by grantorino
We are not bluffing w/ over pair to the board. Is getting worse hands to call our only reason for betting? There are plenty of hands that have equity v us here and you think we should check.
We are not bluffing w/ over pair to the board. Is getting worse hands to call our only reason for betting? There are plenty of hands that have equity v us here and you think we should check. Posted by stien
I already said I bet all day here
Don says range pre is 22-99, and thinks villain only calls flop with sets. Why bet?
Anyway hands with decent equity v JJ never fold so we just bet for value. And yes betting for value would be pretty much the only reason to bet JJ on that board. Better never folds
Lambert ive seen you post fairly regularly in the Clinic, why the **** are you still limping the button? Probably every winning player in this forum will testify to it being a terrible play, even at nl4.
Don - i think you generally assign too tight ranges to players. Especially in a hand like this where the player limped. I think his range has to be wide enough to at least call turn, although betting is the better option.
Lambert ive seen you post fairly regularly in the Clinic, why the **** are you still limping the button? Probably every winning player in this forum will testify to it being a terrible play, even at nl4. Don - i think you generally assign too tight ranges to players. Especially in a hand like this where the player limped. I think his range has to be wide enough to at least call turn, although betting is the better option. Posted by offshoot
Sometimes I doubt my own sanity when posting advice on this forum, maybe above is the voice of reason !
Wow, this has become a popular one. I'll reply to what I can remember people saying
GT - Don has my range pretty much spot on. At 4NL the only hands I'm gonna raise with (if I'm first into the pot) are 22+, AT+, and KQ. Once a solid player like Don has raised before me, I'm 3 betting with JJ+ and AK, flatting all lower pairs and *MAYBE AQ* but probably not against Don, everything else I'm folding. So none of the hands like 78s,K9 etc are in my range. Don had it spot on and it was that fact that allowed me to bluff him off the overpair, cos I knew he'd put me on a small PP and most of them by the turn are either a set or an open ended straight draw at worst.
I know how most of the solid players at this level play, especially Don thanks to clinic posts lol, and as Don said earlier, when he makes this raise pre I know for a fact he only has TT+ or AK. I also know that he will think I'm mostly flatting with low/medium PPs to set-mine. So when I get a flop that doesn't help a single hand in his range and looks like it's all over my range, I play it like a set because I know I can make him fold an overpair on this board (as I did).
Offshoot - I know what you're saying about limping the button and clearly you're a much better player than me, but as I said above, I know for a fact that Don has one of the above mentioned hands, so by raising I'm just gonna create a massive pot when I'm flipping or a big underdog. Against most opponents I'm doing this because 95% of players at this level stack off so easily that I know I can get best part if not all of their stack even when I limp as long as they hit even a tiny bit of the flop, and if I miss (as I very often will), I've saved about 4-5BBs. I do know what ya mean though, I only do it against really bad players and in this case I did it because of what I know of Don's play.
Comments
Why does Lambert limp his btn?
Why does don put him solely on pps?
Why would lambert fold a pair on the flop?
Don makes a bad read and c/f turn and thats ok?
Lambert betting turn is questionable at best. Dont think he called flop to bluff him off an overpair on the turn. Dont hate it but its a protection bet where I dont think there is really need for one
Dont mean this as overly critical, but sounds to me everybody is levelling themselves about this hand
Do you c/f here ?
On a wider scale if Don can find folds in these situations then all is good, but I think it would benefit him to b/f and not c/f
What u fink !!
i refuse to fold jj on this board at 4nl, nit reg or no nit reg, prob on my own here...
From your end, why is lambert btn limping range 22-99?
Why does he only call the flop with a set? If so, why bet?
Why is the 3 a bad turn card? Why is c/f turn best? Do you c/f 33/44 on turn if his range is a flopped set?
More i think about it the less i think 99 is in his range tbh. Less because i believe at NL4 as many regs including myself believe its pointless to raise small pairs then miss set and have to shut down. Most of us would just limp call. Im not sure if Lambert is similar, i probably havent played him enough to know for sure. on the whole i know hes better than most of the players at NL4 so i dont see value in playing him.
If he flats he probably get another street of value. imo anyways.
the cbet was because i knew he had other hands in his range on the flop that dont have sets.
Tbh i wouldnt have cbetted 33 and 44 id probably not be comfortable about getting it in.
Again i play 33/44 completely diff as id have checked.
If he only calls flop with a set betting is terrible
Why would you not cbet 44, if you cbet JJ?
my point is GT i would have checked 44 so yes i would have lead.
A4s v a range i have oop. I dont see alot of regs calling off A4s for 8bb
Posted by grantorino
Posted by stien
Nothing worse calls, our hand is too strong to bluff with
Posted by grantorino
but hands such as KJ/A9/AT might also be in his range and do we wnat to give him a free card?
Posted by The_Don90
Thought he didnt limp those?
If he does they have ~7% to beat you on turn. I would bet for value here all day, but if you think only sets call and hands with 7% equity that can improve to worse top pair hands will fold I think checking is much better than betting, unless you think he never ever puts in more money unless he turns a bigger pair than a J
EDIT: Even if you give 2 free cards its still going to be only something like 12-14% to outdraw you
Posted by grantorino
Don says range pre is 22-99, and thinks villain only calls flop with sets. Why bet?
Anyway hands with decent equity v JJ never fold so we just bet for value. And yes betting for value would be pretty much the only reason to bet JJ on that board. Better never folds
Don - i think you generally assign too tight ranges to players. Especially in a hand like this where the player limped. I think his range has to be wide enough to at least call turn, although betting is the better option.
GT - Don has my range pretty much spot on. At 4NL the only hands I'm gonna raise with (if I'm first into the pot) are 22+, AT+, and KQ. Once a solid player like Don has raised before me, I'm 3 betting with JJ+ and AK, flatting all lower pairs and *MAYBE AQ* but probably not against Don, everything else I'm folding. So none of the hands like 78s,K9 etc are in my range. Don had it spot on and it was that fact that allowed me to bluff him off the overpair, cos I knew he'd put me on a small PP and most of them by the turn are either a set or an open ended straight draw at worst.
I know how most of the solid players at this level play, especially Don thanks to clinic posts lol, and as Don said earlier, when he makes this raise pre I know for a fact he only has TT+ or AK. I also know that he will think I'm mostly flatting with low/medium PPs to set-mine. So when I get a flop that doesn't help a single hand in his range and looks like it's all over my range, I play it like a set because I know I can make him fold an overpair on this board (as I did).
Offshoot - I know what you're saying about limping the button and clearly you're a much better player than me, but as I said above, I know for a fact that Don has one of the above mentioned hands, so by raising I'm just gonna create a massive pot when I'm flipping or a big underdog. Against most opponents I'm doing this because 95% of players at this level stack off so easily that I know I can get best part if not all of their stack even when I limp as long as they hit even a tiny bit of the flop, and if I miss (as I very often will), I've saved about 4-5BBs. I do know what ya mean though, I only do it against really bad players and in this case I did it because of what I know of Don's play.