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Why? Someone please explain! Advice needed.
penguin7
Member Posts: 1,095
Any of you who know me will understand that I have had some success in tournaments over the last few years.
But I have never played much cash at all, but always wanted to. But every time I have tried I would end up grinding away for very little profit or worse, and not really enjoying the game.
However this month I thought I would play a little cash during the Happy hours and try and make priority club.
I have played 22 sessions so far, and the main thing I have done differently is that instead of playing 2 or 3 tables I have played 5 at a time. I think it keeps me interested having more tables in play, and more patient too.
Only at fairly low levels like 10/20 or 15/30 so far, but I have been really enjoying it.
I havent had a losing session yet and am over a grand up. I have had a fair amount of rungood though ! Most sessions I have doubled my buyins.
The problem is that since I have been playing cash regularly my tournament play has gone from bad to worse. I havent had a decent cash, but more worrying I know I am way below my best.
My question is whether there is a different mindset required for the two formats ? What adjustments do cash specialists make when they enter tournies ?
And of course what do I do now ? I dont think I am capable of the cash grind for more than a few hours a day. So the logical step is to move up a level. But at 25/50 and above I am sure it gets much tougher.
What do I need to do to get my tourny play back on track ? Last night I found myself nursing a shortstack in the Sky Roller and TBH half my mind was on the next happy hour. And of course I ended up getting it in in a totally bad spot.
Thoughts anyone ?
But I have never played much cash at all, but always wanted to. But every time I have tried I would end up grinding away for very little profit or worse, and not really enjoying the game.
However this month I thought I would play a little cash during the Happy hours and try and make priority club.
I have played 22 sessions so far, and the main thing I have done differently is that instead of playing 2 or 3 tables I have played 5 at a time. I think it keeps me interested having more tables in play, and more patient too.
Only at fairly low levels like 10/20 or 15/30 so far, but I have been really enjoying it.
I havent had a losing session yet and am over a grand up. I have had a fair amount of rungood though ! Most sessions I have doubled my buyins.
The problem is that since I have been playing cash regularly my tournament play has gone from bad to worse. I havent had a decent cash, but more worrying I know I am way below my best.
My question is whether there is a different mindset required for the two formats ? What adjustments do cash specialists make when they enter tournies ?
And of course what do I do now ? I dont think I am capable of the cash grind for more than a few hours a day. So the logical step is to move up a level. But at 25/50 and above I am sure it gets much tougher.
What do I need to do to get my tourny play back on track ? Last night I found myself nursing a shortstack in the Sky Roller and TBH half my mind was on the next happy hour. And of course I ended up getting it in in a totally bad spot.
Thoughts anyone ?
Comments
If we look at the differences.
Firstly blinds. With them never changing in cash we do not have to worry about being card dead for a while because we can just fold away without having to worry about chasing bad spots. In tournies however we can not spend too long folding or we will just blind away which is a really bad way to go.
Stack depth. Cash plays like level 1 and 2 of tournies because everyone is so deep and you are looking to accumulate rather than risking it AIPF..
Stacks. In cash if you lose it you can reload but in tournies it is all or nothing with your stack which allows you to take bigger risks in cash games where survival is not an issue.
Blind stealing and gear changing. These do not really exist in cash play but are an important part of the tournament players arsenal. This is because in cash you are playing the players and the cards and not so much the situation. Plus blind stealing in cash is almost a sin because what you are doing is leaving value behind for minimal gain.
Now as far as these skills are concerned you just need to think about what you are playing and just use the appropriate skill set. An improvement to your cash game will lead to an improvement in your tourny play if you can differenciate between the two.
To get your tourny play back on course should be simple because you have the ability already there which means you have either lost confidence or are trying to move some cash play into your tourny play. For me the best way for you to get your game back would be to crank up 3 or 4 tournaments at the same time( any stake will do) and just remember why you enjoyed them and had so much success in the first place. Soon you will be able to do both disciplines with the right mindset and have more success in both.And it would probably be best for a while not to try multitabling cash and tournies until you are more comfortable with the differences. Just a few random thoughts and i hope something here is of some use.
First game lost all my money treating them like chips. Oops
Just like to take this opportunity to say thank you for the help and advice you gave when I tried Omaha for the first time.
Now I know the rules and taken on board the advice I really enjoy the game and have moved into trying hi lo. This does concentrate the mind and require your full attention, but good fun. Hugs Annie xx
Like to see you in the £100 gteed hilo tourny one of these nights.
And thank you Mr LOLRAISE sir for your comments too. I understand what you are getting at. Gearchanging and chip dynamics are things I have always considered my strengths in tournament play. And over the last week I have started to apply them to cash play as well. Be a while before you see me at those nosebleed tables though !
Very nice comeback in the Roller last night.
More comments and thoughts please coz this is something I need to get my head round.
From comments here,a couple of PMs and a lot of thought I hope I am getting close to answering the question. Sometimes the act of putting something into words gets the brain working better.
And the points you make are all very valid and relevant to me. But I think the answer to the root cause of my problem is far simpler.
It is mainly a matter of focus. When I started out five years back it was all shiny and new. I would enjoy just playing a single tournament so much I would be totally focused on it. The game was easier then, and having a small edge I would go into every tournament expecting to win it (and often did)
Since those days I have played maybe 10000 tournaments. The novelty has worn off a bit ! Often I am multitabling 3 or 4 tournaments, maybe mixing holdem and omaha. Sometimes playing on three different sites.
And while I play I have the television on, I also post here , contribute to the CPFC fans forum, keep up to date on twitter etc. Even been known to play games on facebook while multi tabling.
When I enter a bigger tournament like the Sky Roller I try to give it 100%. but still find myself doing other things.
But it is only when the tourny is just too important that I give it my full attention. last nights TSP playoff is a fine example. Keeping in TSP is huge to me, I want to be playing GUKPTs regularly. But due to a poor run over the last few months I only crept into the playoff with the minimum chipstack. But the TV was off, I only entered one other tournament and I was focused. And because of that I was confident of putting in a good performance. In fact I almost knew I would win it.
Playing tight through early levels and just finding a few spots I dont recall losing a pot at all. About 20 left called a shortstack shove with AJ knowing it was a flip. Lost but knew I was good enough to get the chips back.
Down to 2 tables I went totally card dead. but even though I was short with only 10 bbs the 3bet shove with air worked time after time. With the dynamics it always would against anything but a monster.
I made myself a cup of tea in one of the breaks and next break found I had forgotten to drink it. That was how wrapped up in the game I was.
And having got through I started remembering successes from the past. And with every major success I have had that same focus and confidence.
So the answer is easy. I have to stop being so arrogant in thinking that I can win tournaments by simply turning up, and only play when I am willing to give it 100%.
And the reason that I have had the good run at cash lately ? Simple! Because succeeding at cash has always been a challenge for me playing 5 tables has demanded my full attention. So playing for the happy hour is ideal as I focus fully then let it all slip when I go back to tournies.
Things have got to change !
I love poker too
I have a lot of respect for Ryans opinions and yours Phil but sometimes the hand is difficult to analyse in isolation.
I think it was against JingleMa who had been chip leader on the table for quite a while, and who I saw as one of the most tricky opponents. I had been card dead and 11/11 for a while but had 3bet shoved light 4 times in the last 10 mins to get back to a working stack. My strategy for the whole tournament had been to overbet everything and it had been working well. I had only played down the streets on a handful of occasions.
And I had watched a few very good players go out after trying to be creative by minraising with marginal hands looking to outplay their opponents.
Another factor was the other table where there was a big chip leader playing aggressively against 4 or 5 shortstacks.
JingleMa put in a preflop raise which represented 15/20% of my stack. In a normal tournament where the cash is all up top I would have been delighted to flat it and let him potcommit with a cbet. But the dynamics of the situation are different. I did give it some thought but could not see the value in calling. If the ace appeared on the flop I would have to fold to a cbet. If it didnt and he checked the flop I would have gained nothing.
A minreraise by me was even less appealing, it would have widened his calling range. without really helping.
I had no reason to get involved with one of the biggest stacks on the table.
So betting potsize was the preferred option, and I didnt see it as closing the action. If he wanted to get it all in I would have obviously accommodated him. It wouldnt have surprised me if he had as I had pushed him off a couple of pots with overbets in the last few minutes. And for the only time in the tourny I showed the hand, hoping it would help out later.
As it was he folded and with the chips I gained I was 90% certain I could get through to the top six, which was the aim. I didnt care if I got there with 1 chip or 1 million, and I was in a good position to push the shorties around.
So I was quite happy with the play, I dont think saying I was playing scared is correct. I probably had all my chips in the middle more often than anyone else, and often with air !
I did make one mistake where I got it allin AQvAK and binked. I dont know if they showed that one, but it was poor. My only excuse was that it would still have left me a few chips and I was playing confidently enough to come back.
Your advice is much appreciated, I am actually taking a break from the cash tables for a couple of days and relaxing with a few small tournies.
Good luck m8
Does sound a little too large, but as I said in previous post I was betting close to potsize all night, and trying to boss the table even when I was not the big stack. Starting the tourny shortstacked it is always tempting to look for a quick double up, but I was trying to build my stack steadily by not going to showdown too often.
Thanks for your help and advice. And having caught the end of the show last night I am well impressed with your analysis.
Yes I was happy to take the pot down there, and if you like I was scared of losing. But my stack was good enough to have me well on track. Even if it did mean missing out on a little value on a few hands.
I had started with a plan to get my stack up there, it had been working fine and I had no reason to change gear.
The previous hand you showed where I folded A5 on the button also looked odd ! But I was only playing hands I could play strongly. Putting in a 3x or min to take down the blinds with a rag ace didnt attract as both of the players in the blinds were capable of reraise with a wide range.
Thanks for the input.
Going to watch the rest of the show now, you and Anna seem to make a good team.
In Response to Re: Why? Someone please explain! Advice needed.:
Even village idiots win 50% of the flips, so it is sometimes better to pass up a strong hand (where occassionally you might even be crushing him) for a clearer situation. Bad players offer a lot of opportunities to win their chips!
Posted by Sky_Dave
I Resemble that remarK!
or is it
I Resent that remark? LOL
I've read you're enjoying playing Hi Lo & Pot Limit Omaha more has the change between disciplines adversely affected your MTT play?
Are you more cautious in holdem as a result of the variance in Omaha?
Whatever the answer it hasn't affected your blog writing! always consistently good!
I very rarely play straight PLO, because I play a lot of hilo here and elsewhere. And good starting hands are very different in the two games. Obviously in hilo the premium starting hands are those with possibilities high and low.
As for playing hilo making me more cautious in holdem, I think there is some truth in that. A marginal starting hand in holdem only hits on the flop a small percentage of times, but in hilo even an indifferent hand often connects in some way.
The thing about hilo is in some ways every thing is magnified, One mistake will often cost you your tournament, and one good hand can win it for you. Bluffing is a lot tougher, so betsizes have to be bigger. Even shoving on the flop rarely gets through. I do play hilo cash and it is not unusual to find yourself with all of your chips in the middle on the flop or turn with no showdown value high or low but only draws both ways.
It also means that in hilo you are often more involved in the game, where in holdem you can fold 20 hands in a row.
There is also a lot of variance in playing styles in hilo. Some players like to play aggressively early in a tournament but I generally wait for those both way hands. But all the good players have the big gearchange when it gets down to 3 or 4 left.
At least I am not a village idiot... I think I win 25% of flips.