was the dealer right to declare my hand as mucked?

sunnyhil03

playing a live mtt tourny all fold to my button i have 55  raise 3bb to 600 sb folds bb calls flop k85 all diamonds bb checks i bet 1000 bb calls turn 9d bb check i check river 3d that puts a king high flush on the board bb checks i bet 2500 bb calls i declare playing the board dealer looks at me i declare again playing the board dealer looks at bb i fully expect bb to show a diamond i drop my cards face down on table on the line bb shows 2 black kings dealer scoops my cards into muck & pushes pot to bb stating i had mucked my cards to which i say why would i muck a split pot even td says i mucked surely dealer should of asked me to show my hand its a split pot ffs... & common sense should of been used

Quietman

In Response to was the dealer right to declare my hand as mucked?:

playing a live mtt tourny all fold to my button i have 55  raise 3bb to 600 sb folds bb calls flop k85 all diamonds bb checks i bet 1000 bb calls turn 9d bb check i check river 3d that puts a king high flush on the board bb checks i bet 2500 bb calls i declare playing the board dealer looks at me i declare again playing the board dealer looks at bb i fully expect bb to show a diamond i drop my cards face down on table on the line bb shows 2 black kings dealer scoops my cards into muck & pushes pot to bb stating i had mucked my cards to which i say why would i muck a split pot even td says i mucked surely dealer should of asked me to show my hand its a split pot ffs... & common sense should of been used
Posted by sunnyhil03

unfortunately many casino employees do not possess this

aiken2001

You declared playing the board which was correct numpty probably did not understand that that was a flush.

sunnyhil03

In Response to Re: was the dealer right to declare my hand as mucked?:

You declared playing the board which was correct numpty probably did not understand that that was a flush.
Posted by aiken2001

i said to him its a flush

AcidMan27

Always protect your cards until the chips have been pushed to your direction.

So in this case declare you're playing the board but keep a hold of your cards until the pot has been shared out.

AMYBR

Its not really about common sense I'm afraid, and it kind of shouldnt be.

Its about accountability.  If we rely on common sense then actions/decisions are going to be interpreted differently all over the place.

Quite rightly, the responsibility is on yourself to adhere with house rules.

Know them, use them and you cant go wrong.

I wouldnt have let my cards get with in far ts distance of the line tbh.

RAB642

because you threw your cards face down you mucked, you have to show your cards to claim a pot whether its a split pot or not, Amybr is quite correct your cards are your responsibility and it sounds like you mucked before the other guy showed his cards, so it sounds as if the dealer was in the right, if you have a problem again just ask for the tourney director and they will keep you right.

penguin7

Declaring you are playing the board means nothing. Unless everyone else has mucked their cards you need to show your cards face up to win the pot.

Always keep your cards well behind the line until the dealer has pushed the pot to the winner. Not just for this situation, but because if they are on or over the line the dealer may rightly or wrongly consider them mucked. or they will be declared dead if another player mucks his hand on top of them or even merely touching them.

EvilPingu

One of the top tips on the Sky Poker channel is from a tournament director, I think he says "Your cards are like your receipt for the pot", or words to that effect. Once you've thrown your cards away, it's like throwing a receipt away, you can't get any money back.

Besides, if everyone said "I've got this hand" and didn't show their hand, then everyone would just claim to have the nuts, and nobody would win anything, except the casino of course

JockBMW

Your cards are your "receipt for the pot"  as said by Thomas Kremser, one of the best respected Tour directors around 

if I'm reading this right,  your cards were "faced down" when ypu put them in the middle,  

I think the dealer was right, no matter what you said.  If you had put them in the middle faced up, then I would have been on your side 

1267

How are you moaning !?  You flopped set under set and didn't go broke !  be happy.

SolarCarro

This has been answered already but you must show your cards face up to claim a pot

Why on earth did you not show your hand?

Pushing 2 cards face down towards a dealer is mucking the hand

Dave

Richard49

I agree - your cards need to be face up to claim any pot whether split or not.

Dealer was technically correct here but in some casinos they will use common sense if other players agree.

Slykllist

Unfortunately for you on this occaision, the rule is that cards speak.

Therefore you cannot claim a pot unless you show your cards, if you've dropped your cards face down over the line, it's very harsh, but I'm afraid the dealer and the TD are right, you've mucked them!

Tikay10

Hi Sunnyhill,

You sent me a Twitter message asking my opinion on this, & your message ended #ontilt.

I'm not sure if you were on tilt with the Dealer, or yourself, but I hope it was the latter - the Dealer was 100% correct, & you were 100% wrong, without even the merest shade of doubt.

ANY hand which reaches Showdown has be tabled face up to qualify, if you do not turn them face up in a timely manner, the Dealer has every right to muck them.

Declaring "board" is meaningless, utterly meaningless, & you will never ever be awarded a pot simply by verbally declaring your hand. 

I'm sorry that is not the answer you were hoping for, but the blame lies 100% with you, I'm afraid.

It might be wise to brush up on the Rules of Live poker before playing Live again, as this is an absolutely basic & fundamental rule. There are very important differences between Online & Live Poker, as demonstrated here, & the two formats play quite different in many ways. It's near impossible to break "in-game rules" Online, in Live Poker, it is easily done, as it relies MUCH more on the players knowledge.

Sorry!

Talon

  Have read through this thread with interest because of my lack of knowledge of live poker and unfamilialrity with rulings. All i had to work with was basic logic of the situation.

  i feel it is time for me to give my opinion of something in the opening post. The phrase common sense was used about the situation and i feel that someone is trying to use that arguement where it doesnt belong. If we look at all situations that involve money then saying and not showing is never enough.

  Try going into a supermarket and just saying what you have in your trolley to the checkout operator and see how far it gets you. Or going to the person in charge of payroll at your work and just telling them the number of hours that you worked and see if they accept this without question.

 The truth of the matter is that common sense dictates that for us to be totally believed in any situation in this world then we need to show proof and not just rely on someone believing everything we say. In this hand you stated your hand for the dealer but then you declined to show any proof of the situation even though any 2 cards would have worked. Our word may be worth a lot to people we know but to any stranger or in any situation that involves money our word has no weight and only proof will suffice.

  This is what i believe to be the true common sense of the situation. Proof always beats stated opinion.

Tikay10

Fine Post by Talon
 
This case is totally open & shut - just turn your hand over, job done!

rancid

Lesson learned, don't muck your cards!

how can you win a pot with no cards )

say "I play the board"

action: turn your cards over

simples

sunnyhil03

In Response to Re: was the dealer right to declare my hand as mucked?:

Hi Sunnyhill, You sent me a Twitter message asking my opinion on this, & your message ended #ontilt. I'm not sure if you were on tilt with the Dealer, or yourself, but I hope it was the latter - the Dealer was 100% correct, & you were 100% wrong, without even the merest shade of doubt. ANY hand which reaches Showdown has be tabled face up to qualify, if you do not turn them face up in a timely manner, the Dealer has every right to muck them. Declaring "board" is meaningless, utterly meaningless, & you will never ever be awarded a pot simply by verbally declaring your hand.  I'm sorry that is not the answer you were hoping for, but the blame lies 100% with you, I'm afraid. It might be wise to brush up on the Rules of Live poker before playing Live again, as this is an absolutely basic & fundamental rule. There are very important differences between Online & Live Poker, as demonstrated here, & the two formats play quite different in many ways. It's near impossible to break "in-game rules" Online, in Live Poker, it is easily done, as it relies MUCH more on the players knowledge. Sorry!
Posted by Tikay10

 THX FOR ALL REPLYS I NOW REALISE I SHOULD OF TURNED MY CARDS /> BUT STILL THINK DEALER COULD OF ASKED ME TO FLIP MY CARDS OVER INSTEAD OF DRAGGING THEM TO MUCK>>> LESSON LEARNED & THX FOR REPLYS