In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : Your logic is different to mine, not to say its wrong, but avoiding tough decisions is the way for me. Theres not a lot of hands we call on the turn that would continue on the river, 1 pairs are likely to check(check/call) draws will give up(or slight chance of bluffing), and the only hands that will continue on the river are hands we lose to . . . My Quesion is: What range are we getting value from the villain on the river?? Posted by WHOAMI196
The hand he has minus binking two pair on da river.
In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : Your logic is different to mine, not to say its wrong, but avoiding tough decisions is the way for me. Theres not a lot of hands we call on the turn that would continue on the river, 1 pairs are likely to check(check/call) draws will give up(or slight chance of bluffing), and the only hands that will continue on the river are hands we lose to . . . My Quesion is: What range are we getting value from the villain on the river?? Posted by WHOAMI196
if this is our read then we can play perfectly by calling the turn and vbetting the river if checked to and folding if villain fires the third barrel.
when you raise the turn all you're going to achieve is playing for a bigger pot when behind and winning a smaller pot when you're ahead, because he probably won't continue with worse.
In Response to Re:when you raise the turn all you're going to achieve is playing for a bigger pot when behind and winning a smaller pot when you're ahead, because he probably won't continue with worse. Posted by yb
I love the logic, but i dont think it applies here; personaly. My main point here is "whats his range", What is he betting with? he is unlikely to triple-barrell bluff the river, he is more likely to call a raise on the turn with his draws. There are no made hands on the board as of yet, but there are straight draws and flush draws.
KJ-set is the only hand we fear, so playing a big pot here is not a bad thing, as we are likely to be well ahead of his overall-percieved range.
By just calling the turn, over time, we are going to face a tough decision.Resulting in just calling (a potential river bet) with the best hand(losing value), and calling(never folding) when we are behind, bad play.
EDIT the only time i would call the turn if i felt that i was behind, fold if he continues the river, and bet for value on the river if he checks.
I don't play cash but aspire to so I like to read the clinic to try & learn. As I see it he is surely betting for value here? Just purely on the betting pattern I reckon hes flopped a set?
In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : And the Award for the "Poker-Clinic Contributor of the Year" goes to. . . Posted by WHOAMI196
i dont understand huuuume, you say he wont donk bet with ahand worse than i got yet you say reraise?. i thought i was ahead post and was thinking about reraising but do i lose him with a bad k? each street my chance of losing this hand increases, should i have shut it down earlier or was flatting the easy way out? Posted by pod1
I didnt re read it but i meant to say i dont think he is ever donking with a hand better than yours (sorry if mistyped it before) but i also dont think he is ever donking pure air. there is the risk you blow him off a weaker king but you make him pay to chase any draws. he is never folding top pair against me in this spot so it also depends on how he views you
i also like reraising the flop so that he doesnt get any clues about leading into me regularly and therefore i can control the action more often in these types of spots when im opening the button every orbit.
obv unlucky but river is fold always here. he just never barrels anything that you beat on the end
tatty, you never commented how you would play it, thoughts welcome. as for comments above, he is solid reg and i was playing him on 6 tables at the time. very rarley he leads out unless he thinks he is ahead of my range. maybe i was a bit results orientated here and more times than not i would win this. had he hit a set i have not over inflated the pot by raising flop or turn and kept it under control.
he is never leading out with a set or 2 pair here....literally never.
raising post flop (specifically on the flop) is not with the intention of turning tptk into a bluff - it is with the intention of getting value from villain when you are almost always ahead in the hand.
he is never leading out with a set or 2 pair here....literally never. raising post flop (specifically on the flop) is not with the intention of turning tptk into a bluff - it is with the intention of getting value from villain when you are almost always ahead in the hand. Posted by huuuuume
I would think a competent reg is much more likely to donk 2p+ than top pair on this board (maybe you have specific reads on this guy). What range does a decent player donk and call or 3bet on that board that we beat? Maybe KQ, maybe ifs hes aggro he goes nuts with some other hands here, but without specific history call />>raise on every street imo
In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : I didnt re read it but i meant to say i dont think he is ever donking with a hand better than yours (sorry if mistyped it before) but i also dont think he is ever donking pure air. there is the risk you blow him off a weaker king but you make him pay to chase any draws. he is never folding top pair against me in this spot so it also depends on how he views you i also like reraising the flop so that he doesnt get any clues about leading into me regularly and therefore i can control the action more often in these types of spots when im opening the button every orbit. obv unlucky but river is fold always here. he just never barrels anything that you beat on the end Posted by huuuuume
I agree with you huuuume, esp the "bolded" bit. Being in contol in a hand and avoiding tough spots, will ensure that your destined to make profit in the long run.
In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : I would think a competent reg is much more likely to donk 2p+ than top pair on this board (maybe you have specific reads on this guy). What range does a decent player donk and call or 3bet on that board that we beat? Maybe KQ, maybe ifs hes aggro he goes nuts with some other hands here, but without specific history call />>raise on every street imo Posted by grantorino
the range should be balanced but considering the stakes it is not likely to be that balanced. villain never has K4 or J4 and will never donk bet KJ 44 or JJ. on the flop we are ahead and should bet for value.
you're forgetting that pod1 is a decent reg also and can be opening pretty much anything and everything from the button.
pod will also cbet ~80% of the flops in position (maybe more when it flops like this) so if he has a big hand here and like you say he is a decent reg why would he ever ever lead the flop? he wont be leading the flop ever with a hand bigger than tptk because he wont want to see pod1 insta fold and him then miss getting any value from his 2 pair/set type hands.
if pod1 is just going to flat call every street when he is this strong then villain may as well lead all draws knowing that he can get to the river at a price of his choosing and knowing if he hits he can bet river for value every time. also if we dont reraise these flops with this type of hand then he can lead every time knowing that the only time he is getting reraised is when we have a complete monster and then he can get away from loads of hands we would ordinarily be able to get value from.
btw its not 'nuts' or particularly 'aggro' to lead flop with top pair 3rd kicker and its not 'nuts' or particularly 'aggro' to barrel with these type of hands especially when pod1 could (and should) be opening pretty wide from the button pre flop.
totally agree with this huuuume, its a big leak in my game i think . if im only reraising with monsters then any decent player is laying down half decent hands that i should be being paid off on. allowing players to "catch up" on draws by playing too passive is another hole in my game. against 80 % of players at nl20/30 i get away with it and do very well , but players like him and most players at nl40/50 i get punished. thanks for feedback huuume its defiantly food for thought. phil
Surely we have to know that if we raise flop with this hand then oppo will pay off because it is just as likely we raise here with btm of range
- in this situation if oppo perceives we only raise with top of range then raising is not good - likewise if we are perceived to be raising all range then raising is ok
In Response to Re: at what point do you take over the betting! : the range should be balanced but considering the stakes it is not likely to be that balanced. villain never has K4 or J4 and will never donk bet KJ 44 or JJ. on the flop we are ahead and should bet for value.
Even if we are ahead 100% it doesnt always mean we should bet for value. Why should/would he lead KT but not KJ?
you're forgetting that pod1 is a decent reg also and can be opening pretty much anything and everything from the button.
Not forgetting this at all, but I fail to see why that means villain never donks monsters but does donk midstrength hands or draws
pod will also cbet ~80% of the flops in position (maybe more when it flops like this) so if he has a big hand here and like you say he is a decent reg why would he ever ever lead the flop? he wont be leading the flop ever with a hand bigger than tptk because he wont want to see pod1 insta fold and him then miss getting any value from his 2 pair/set type hands.
Does this not apply to TP hands , even 2nd pair hands also as pods range is pretty wide? Should he only donk draws/air by this logic?
if pod1 is just going to flat call every street when he is this strong then villain may as well lead all draws knowing that he can get to the river at a price of his choosing and knowing if he hits he can bet river for value every time. also if we dont reraise these flops with this type of hand then he can lead every time knowing that the only time he is getting reraised is when we have a complete monster and then he can get away from loads of hands we would ordinarily be able to get value from.
I wouldnt be too worried about being exploited, especially if you think above he cant balance his range. Also you can bluffraise him as well as raise with monsters. Sometimes we call with weaker hands and he wont get paid off . Against a good opponent who donks a lot and we have reads/history against I think you can raise here. Pod hasnt posted any and I think in a vacuum raising isnt great here. But yeah there are some meta and balancing issues which can make raising good
btw its not 'nuts' or particularly 'aggro' to lead flop with top pair 3rd kicker and its not 'nuts' or particularly 'aggro' to barrel with these type of hands especially when pod1 could (and should) be opening pretty wide from the button pre flop.
No its not, and I never said it was although I dont see much reason for villain to lead tpwk into a btn open from a player like pod. I dont think many competent regs at lower level are b/c or b/3b with tpwk oop without a bit of aggro history though, and I would regard b/3b with KT on that flop as pretty aggro at micros and certainly wouldnt be standard for most regs Posted by huuuuume
Just my 2c, I may be wrong on all the above as you certainly know what you are talking about
Comments
when you raise the turn all you're going to achieve is playing for a bigger pot when behind and winning a smaller pot when you're ahead, because he probably won't continue with worse.
We only raise if we know oppo donks worse and pays off our raises be it flop, turn or river
Depends if you think raising donk leads is standard play with TPTK
Sure without reads we more often than not fold out range we beat and inflate pot versus range we lose to
KJ-set is the only hand we fear, so playing a big pot here is not a bad thing, as we are likely to be well ahead of his overall-percieved range.
By just calling the turn, over time, we are going to face a tough decision.Resulting in just calling (a potential river bet) with the best hand(losing value), and calling(never folding) when we are behind, bad play.
EDIT the only time i would call the turn if i felt that i was behind, fold if he continues the river, and bet for value on the river if he checks.
I don't play cash but aspire to so I like to read the clinic to try & learn. As I see it he is surely betting for value here? Just purely on the betting pattern I reckon hes flopped a set?
i also like reraising the flop so that he doesnt get any clues about leading into me regularly and therefore i can control the action more often in these types of spots when im opening the button every orbit.
obv unlucky but river is fold always here. he just never barrels anything that you beat on the end
depending on reads you can prob fold river
he is never leading out with a set or 2 pair here....literally never.
raising post flop (specifically on the flop) is not with the intention of turning tptk into a bluff - it is with the intention of getting value from villain when you are almost always ahead in the hand.
you're forgetting that pod1 is a decent reg also and can be opening pretty much anything and everything from the button.
pod will also cbet ~80% of the flops in position (maybe more when it flops like this) so if he has a big hand here and like you say he is a decent reg why would he ever ever lead the flop? he wont be leading the flop ever with a hand bigger than tptk because he wont want to see pod1 insta fold and him then miss getting any value from his 2 pair/set type hands.
if pod1 is just going to flat call every street when he is this strong then villain may as well lead all draws knowing that he can get to the river at a price of his choosing and knowing if he hits he can bet river for value every time. also if we dont reraise these flops with this type of hand then he can lead every time knowing that the only time he is getting reraised is when we have a complete monster and then he can get away from loads of hands we would ordinarily be able to get value from.
btw its not 'nuts' or particularly 'aggro' to lead flop with top pair 3rd kicker and its not 'nuts' or particularly 'aggro' to barrel with these type of hands especially when pod1 could (and should) be opening pretty wide from the button pre flop.
Surely we have to know that if we raise flop with this hand then oppo will pay off because it is just as likely we raise here with btm of range
- in this situation if oppo perceives we only raise with top of range then raising is not good
- likewise if we are perceived to be raising all range then raising is ok
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!