It's really not a question of outcome here. You shoved and took the aggressive line. That is undoubtedly +ev and ultimately you are the favourite over the AJ anyway. There's been quite alot of talk about the opponents calling range here, but the better point to make is that his opening range, four-handed is as wide as it gets. Most players open here with JT or better, and players like me - super-laggy - will open with any two. Against that opening range you definitely profit from the shove. You can never, ever call here unless you enjoy seeing three overcards on the flop and seeing your eights disappear, nor can you ever raise-fold. So that just leaves folding to an opener with a range that we're way ahead of, or shoving... It's an easy shove and this is one of the few times in poker that you can say there is a definitive "right" thing to do.
It's really not a question of outcome here. You shoved and took the aggressive line. That is undoubtedly +ev and ultimately you are the favourite over the AJ anyway. There's been quite alot of talk about the opponents calling range here, but the better point to make is that his opening range, four-handed is as wide as it gets. Most players open here with JT or better, and players like me - super-laggy - will open with any two. Against that opening range you definitely profit from the shove. You can never, ever call here unless you enjoy seeing three overcards on the flop and seeing your eights disappear, nor can you ever raise-fold. So that just leaves folding to an opener with a range that we're way ahead of, or shoving... It's an easy shove and this is one of the few times in poker that you can say there is a definitive "right" thing to do. Posted by BorinLoner
HI BL, As a newbie who wants to improve I've found this thread really interesting and I take on board Gregs comment. As I said above I'm a nit so I'd def fold and wait for a better spot, tho I do realise that its a shove or fold scenario. I'm interested in the AJ/JT opening ranges bit. If I COULD put oppo on JT I reckon I still fold as I reckon I'm only slight favourite and I'm putting my tourney life at risk. I'm guessing from the comments from the experiencied players I'm def getting this wrong? (percentage wise I mean) Would you shove with ANY PP?
Also, sorry for your BB Rancid & hijacking your thread!
In Response to Re: Mini open last 19 : HI BL, As a newbie who wants to improve I've found this thread really interesting and I take on board Gregs comment. As I said above I'm a nit so I'd def fold and wait for a better spot, tho I do realise that its a shove or fold scenario. I'm interested in the AJ/JT opening ranges bit. If I COULD put oppo on JT I reckon I still fold as I reckon I'm only slight favourite and I'm putting my tourney life at risk. I'm guessing from the comments from the experiencied players I'm def getting this wrong? (percentage wise I mean) Would you shove with ANY PP? Also, sorry for your BB Rancid & hijacking your thread! Posted by Glenelg
The part that makes this a deffo shove includes the hands like this, which he raises but will fold to your shove
I'm a pretty experienced SNG player, so I'm really used to playing short handed, shortish stacked like this. Obviously it's a very different game to short handed, deep-stacked cash games so to cash players you can look a bit reckless saying "3-bet shove with 22+". lol
My opinion on it is that the opening range of most players, 4-max is at least 30 hands. If we assume that they'll call our 20BB with 10 hands we're "afraid" of - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, AK, AQ, AJ, AT - then we're going to get this through uncontested 2/3 times against a tight opener. Even when we're called, we're a slight favourite against four of the ten hands in his calling range anyway. So the 3-bet shove pre-flop is the obvious play in light of those assumptions. Of course there may also be 88 and 77 in our opponents calling range but we're definitely not afraid of those. In that sense the 22 is in a very similar position to the 88. It's a flip against the overcards and most of the time it will get a fold anyway.
Late in tournaments it's all about pre-flop play. When we're four-handed, 88 is a monster. Most people will have a super-wide opening range in order to pay the blinds which come around every other hand. We can see a shove is likely to be profitable against a tight range so against a wide range it's even stronger.
In Response to Re: Mini open last 19 : HI BL, As a newbie who wants to improve I've found this thread really interesting and I take on board Gregs comment. As I said above I'm a nit so I'd def fold and wait for a better spot, tho I do realise that its a shove or fold scenario. I'm interested in the AJ/JT opening ranges bit. If I COULD put oppo on JT I reckon I still fold as I reckon I'm only slight favourite and I'm putting my tourney life at risk. I'm guessing from the comments from the experiencied players I'm def getting this wrong? (percentage wise I mean) Would you shove with ANY PP? Also, sorry for your BB Rancid & hijacking your thread! Posted by Glenelg
Don't be silly, this is why I put these out there )
Comments
In Response to Re: Mini open last 19:
HI BL,As a newbie who wants to improve I've found this thread really interesting and I take on board Gregs comment. As I said above I'm a nit so I'd def fold and wait for a better spot, tho I do realise that its a shove or fold scenario. I'm interested in the AJ/JT opening ranges bit. If I COULD put oppo on JT I reckon I still fold as I reckon I'm only slight favourite and I'm putting my tourney life at risk. I'm guessing from the comments from the experiencied players I'm def getting this wrong? (percentage wise I mean) Would you shove with ANY PP?
Also, sorry for your BB Rancid & hijacking your thread!
I'm a pretty experienced SNG player, so I'm really used to playing short handed, shortish stacked like this. Obviously it's a very different game to short handed, deep-stacked cash games so to cash players you can look a bit reckless saying "3-bet shove with 22+". lol
My opinion on it is that the opening range of most players, 4-max is at least 30 hands. If we assume that they'll call our 20BB with 10 hands we're "afraid" of - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, AK, AQ, AJ, AT - then we're going to get this through uncontested 2/3 times against a tight opener. Even when we're called, we're a slight favourite against four of the ten hands in his calling range anyway. So the 3-bet shove pre-flop is the obvious play in light of those assumptions. Of course there may also be 88 and 77 in our opponents calling range but we're definitely not afraid of those. In that sense the 22 is in a very similar position to the 88. It's a flip against the overcards and most of the time it will get a fold anyway.
Late in tournaments it's all about pre-flop play. When we're four-handed, 88 is a monster. Most people will have a super-wide opening range in order to pay the blinds which come around every other hand. We can see a shove is likely to be profitable against a tight range so against a wide range it's even stronger.
Don't be silly, this is why I put these out there