I agree, we want him to make bad decisions, and not good ones. The problem is in the idea that KQ is a hand we can play for value against his limp-calling range. As long as we have K high, we can be pretty much sure we won't win if it goes to showdown - that is if we still only have King high at showdown, it's bad for us - So if we're playing this hand for value, we really need to hit. If we flop top pair or better, then it's not KQ anymore, it's top-pair, top-kicker, which we have to refer to as a different, post-flop hand. Otherwise, if we want to take this hand down at any other point, we're effectively going to be bluffing. So KQ is a bluffing hand most of the time.
The whole debate here is about what we would do pre-flop, and what the optimal pre-flop raise would be facing a limp for 200. I think we'd all end up playing most flops in similar ways. I may have different ideas of what players will do pre-flop facing a raise with certain hands, but in my experience many, not all, limpers will fold hands like 9T facing a 4x raise, but won't even consider it when facing a 3x raise. That's good when it allows us to take the pot down pre-flop. I think you'd agreee that most players will let go of hands like 45 and 56, if the've limped with them.
As for weighting his range towards stronger hands, you have to remember that the stronger hands in his range are not "strong" hands at all. They'll be pairs like 44 and Aces like A8. So we're not defining his range as only strong hands, we're just narrowing it to a smaller number of weak, predictable hands. Narrowing his range to hands like this will make it easier for us down the streets - really just on the flop in this particular hand since we're pretty shallow - since we can represent strength on most flops. If he has 44, unless he flops the set (1/8 times) he's going to be scared by any flop and we can take it down with a c-bet. If he has hands like A8, even if he flops an Ace we can rep a stronger Ace and take it down - Although in this example, as I say, we're shallow so we might just have to give up on the flop.
Whether we make it 600 or 800 we're all going to have similar problems on particularly wet boards like 678, but if we've made it 800 we can make a reasonable assumption that two-pair and made-straight hands are unlikely to be in his range. Meaning we're still able to rep an over-pair against A8 or a drawing hand like A9. If our opponent flops the set, it's just hard luck and we'll lose our c-bet and possibly more if we assess the flop play incorrectly... However, if we don't fold out those 45 and 67 hands, we're never going to get our c-bet through and we're definitely going to lose it.
You say that"Its good for us if he calls with stuff like 89, we will still win a bigger pot most of time, and if we both hit we can stack him lots."but I don't think many players will flop an 8 on a King high board and go broke with it. They're playing that hand for the sake of straight and flush and two pair hands, so when we get it in against them on a flop with our top pair, we're hoping they show a flush or straight draw. We'll never be a huge favourite and could be a big underdog when they show two-pair or trips.
I appreciate the effort you've gone to with your response. I just think that where we vary is in the pre-flop value of KQ. Yes we're in position, which is obviously going to be very helpful, but we're only a big favourite against other King-high and Queen-high hands. Narrowing his range by putting him to that tough decision will still result in those KJ, QJ, KT hands making a mistake often enough for us to not lose the value against the range we really dominate. If we face a flop without further narrowing his range any c-bet bluff we make is going to be more gamble than calculated aggression.
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The whole debate here is about what we would do pre-flop, and what the optimal pre-flop raise would be facing a limp for 200. I think we'd all end up playing most flops in similar ways. I may have different ideas of what players will do pre-flop facing a raise with certain hands, but in my experience many, not all, limpers will fold hands like 9T facing a 4x raise, but won't even consider it when facing a 3x raise. That's good when it allows us to take the pot down pre-flop. I think you'd agreee that most players will let go of hands like 45 and 56, if the've limped with them.
As for weighting his range towards stronger hands, you have to remember that the stronger hands in his range are not "strong" hands at all. They'll be pairs like 44 and Aces like A8. So we're not defining his range as only strong hands, we're just narrowing it to a smaller number of weak, predictable hands. Narrowing his range to hands like this will make it easier for us down the streets - really just on the flop in this particular hand since we're pretty shallow - since we can represent strength on most flops. If he has 44, unless he flops the set (1/8 times) he's going to be scared by any flop and we can take it down with a c-bet. If he has hands like A8, even if he flops an Ace we can rep a stronger Ace and take it down - Although in this example, as I say, we're shallow so we might just have to give up on the flop.
Whether we make it 600 or 800 we're all going to have similar problems on particularly wet boards like 678, but if we've made it 800 we can make a reasonable assumption that two-pair and made-straight hands are unlikely to be in his range. Meaning we're still able to rep an over-pair against A8 or a drawing hand like A9. If our opponent flops the set, it's just hard luck and we'll lose our c-bet and possibly more if we assess the flop play incorrectly... However, if we don't fold out those 45 and 67 hands, we're never going to get our c-bet through and we're definitely going to lose it.
You say that "Its good for us if he calls with stuff like 89, we will still win a bigger pot most of time, and if we both hit we can stack him lots." but I don't think many players will flop an 8 on a King high board and go broke with it. They're playing that hand for the sake of straight and flush and two pair hands, so when we get it in against them on a flop with our top pair, we're hoping they show a flush or straight draw. We'll never be a huge favourite and could be a big underdog when they show two-pair or trips.
I appreciate the effort you've gone to with your response. I just think that where we vary is in the pre-flop value of KQ. Yes we're in position, which is obviously going to be very helpful, but we're only a big favourite against other King-high and Queen-high hands. Narrowing his range by putting him to that tough decision will still result in those KJ, QJ, KT hands making a mistake often enough for us to not lose the value against the range we really dominate. If we face a flop without further narrowing his range any c-bet bluff we make is going to be more gamble than calculated aggression.
Begin to understand why I get fewer and fewer replies